You know how you’re not supposed to use water to put out certain kinds of fires? Electrical fires, sure — but also some chemical fires, right? You know one of the chemical fires you’re not supposed to put out with water? That’s right, anhydrous ammonia — the substance that just last night blew up [which was found in] a fertilizer factory in West, Texas. (West, Texas is not actually in West Texas, by the way; it’s 80 miles south of Dallas., 20 north of Waco.)
UPDATE 4/19: Ryan Cantor links to a site that says that anhydrous ammonia poses no fire risk and won’t explode. My reporting is based on what was known when the story broke, including that there was unreported anhydrous ammonia on site, an assertion that there were no chemicals on site that could cause a fire or explosion, and an assertion that the substance could cause an explosion (as could anything that can cause a fire, depending on whether it’s next to something combustible.) Today we learned that there was ammonium nitrate stored on site, which is at minimum a much more straightforward cause of an explosion and which aggravates the problems of lack of reporting and lack of monitoring discussed in the article, as well as explaining how the omission put firefighters at risk. I’m leaving the photo as is, though. Text added to keep sentences grammatical (after strikeouts) is in brackets.
UPDATE 4/20: Oy. The West, Texas fertilizer plant where a powerful explosion killed at least 14 and injured dozens had 1,350 times the allowed amount of ammonium nitrate.
Fertilizer manufacture is a dangerous business; as Slate notes, the day before this explosion was
the 66th anniversary of the deadliest industrial accident in U.S. history: the Texas City disaster of 1947, a fertilizer explosion that killed more than 580 people when a French-flagged vessel hauling ammonium nitrate caught fire, resulting in a chain reaction of fires and explosions that destroyed much of the port city.
(Ammonia, water, and fertilizer — again!)
Now maybe you knew that about the extent of the explosive power [dangers] of anhydrous ammonia being facilitated by spraying water on it (thus warming it). I expect that a lot of people don’t. [I’m guessing that most people by now know about the dangers of ammonium nitrate.] One of them that didn’t know it well enough was the person taking video of the fertilizer factory fire from what surely seemed like a safe distance. (I’m not going to put the video here because the last part is upsetting. Go watch it on Slate at that link above — and heed their warning.) The first 29 seconds of the video are pretty much variations of the first image in the series below. The last three images cover the next second or so.
Estimates as of a few hours after the blast were at least three dead (but probably many more), perhaps 200 injured, five blocks laid waste, 50-75 houses destroyed — and it registered on seismographs in Dallas as 2.1 on the Richter scale. That’s pretty awful — except compared to what it will probably look like later today. And of course it comes at a time when people in this country are pretty sensitized to the dangers of explosions. So — what went wrong?
I bring this up here because one of the things we love to talk about here in the Orange County political blogosphere is the limited role of government. This was indeed a failure of government — but it wasn’t a failure by government. It was a failure caused by our having a government too strapped to investigate whether some of the people it regulates are lying to them — or, perhaps, merely omitting facts out of stupidity and ignorance.
Here’s something that the government is supposed to know — and I’ll bet that it does. From the Dallas Morning News:
“Emergency responders should not mix water used for firefighting directly with anhydrous ammonia as this will result in warming of the product, causing the liquid to turn into a vapor cloud,” says the website of Calamco, a growers’ cooperative in California. Explosive hazards with fertilizer are more commonly linked to ammonium nitrate, which is widely used both in agriculture and as an explosive in construction and mining. A mixture of ammonium nitrate and fuel oil was used to make the bomb that destroyed the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City 18 years ago Friday.
There is special protective equipment that firefighters must wear in the event of an ammonia accident, and here in Missouri, there are certain special emergency numbers that people must call. There are special techniques that firefighters must follow, like staying upwind of ammonia. Sadly, there is inadequate training for how to handle anhydrous ammonia.
So what was the problem? Either of the above two links will take you to this:
The fertilizer plant that exploded Wednesday night in West, Texas, reported to the Environmental Protection Agency and local public safety officials that it presented no risk of fire or explosion, documents show.
West Fertilizer Co. reported having as much as 54,000 pounds of anhydrous ammonia on hand in an emergency planning report required of facilities that use toxic or hazardous chemicals.
But the report, reviewed Wednesday night by The Dallas Morning News, stated “no” under fire or explosive risks. The worst possible scenario, the report said, would be a 10-minute release of ammonia gas that would kill or injure no one.
The second worst possibility projected was a leak from a broken hose used to transfer the product, again causing no injuries.
The plan says the facility did not have any other dangerous chemicals on hand. It says that the plan was on file with the local fire department and that the company had implemented proper safety rules.
Should someone at the EPA have noticed the presence of 54,000 pounds of anhydrous ammonia and had a light bulb explode above them? Perhaps — but we don’t know how many reports each person had to review, and whether — as seems likely — more attention was given to ones that reported that there was a fire risk. Who filled out that report? Someone who either knew or should have known that that amount of anhydrous ammonia posed a risk of a massive explosion in the event of a fire. [And, obviously, this applies all the more so to ammonium nitrate.]
But maybe they didn’t know either. You know who really should have known? The people who own the bloody plant, who after all are in the fertilizer business. They’re supposed to know about this sort of risk, right? Presumably, they’re supposed to make sure that the first responders coming to help out in the event of a fire know that as well. And yet somehow they let things go through improperly reported, perhaps presuming that the risk of any such fire was small. And so a bunch of fire fighters — six of them were missing as of midnight our time, by the way — headed out there, thinking that they were fighting a fire that looked like the first photo at the far left, not realizing that they were turning it into [faced] the kind of horror you see in the second through fourth photos.
The EPA, you may recall, was one of the three agencies that Texas Governor (and would-be sucker of businesses out of California) Rick Perry said that he’d want to eliminate if elected President. (The others being umm, ahhh, forget it. Oops!) Well here’s something to keep in mind. Those people in Texas are just as dead and just as wounded from this explosion — and probably each in slightly greater number — as were their counterparts in Boston two days previous. Yes, we want to be able to prevent and to solve crime, but let me ask you a cold-blooded conservative accountant-like question:
Which is going to save more lives: an extra million dollars going into more FBI agents and prisons and whatever we think could have prevented or deterred the crime in Boston — or putting that million into ensuring that businesses that house hazardous substances are at least reporting correctly to the government agents that regulate them?
I think that it’s likely that the latter saves more lives for less money — but that leads to “more, bigger government.” I don’t think that I’m anti-government for suggesting stronger workplace safety and consumer safety standards and enforcement, though. I just think that, like the people cheering on runners in Boston, the people in West, Texas did not deserve to die — and had as much or more to fear from the leaders of their community industry as they did from some crazed domestic terrorist.
Will we see their names and stories as well? And will the perpetrators, in this case as well, be found and punished?
*Don’t cry fire in a crowded Fertilizer Plant? The horrible reports differ. Some say
15 people died…..many say 60-70 are dead and hundreds injured. Try to remember
the Oklahoma City Bombing…….Fertilizer was a principle component.
Terrible tragedy….another one.
Another fertilizer explosion:
The Texas City disaster was the deadliest industrial accident in U.S. history. The incident took place on April 16, 1947, and began with a mid-morning fire on board the French-registered vessel SS Grandcamp which was docked in the Port of Texas City. The fire detonated approximately 2,300 tons (2,086,100 kg) of ammonium nitrate (fertilizer) and the resulting chain reaction of fires and explosions killed at least 581 people.
From wiki
Yeah. See the block quote in the second paragraph above.
Just a reminder that I’ve been prepping for a trial and am going to be scarce here, including not monitoring much of the discussion in anything close to real time. If I comment this week, it will be pretty much occasional. You don’t seem to have much problem keeping a vigorous discussion going without me, so special thanks for the thoughtful comments and ordinary thanks for the less thoughtful ones.
It’ll be interesting to see.
Waco must have some serious bad Karma
You may recall that the haircut posing as a governor, Rick Perry, was here trying to lure businesses to Texas because they can pay slave wages and they won’t have those pesky regulations to worry about. (He also thought that the way to end the drought was to have a massive pray-in.)
Explosions? A minor cost of doing business.
And what evidence do you have that it was lax Texas regulation which led to this explosion? you just pulled that out of your ass – more fertilizer.
Well, this appears to be the type of incident that would not have occurred without some negligence involved. Maintenance issues, misplacement of product, ignoring reasonable safety concerns–all matters that following appropriate regulations are designed to prevent. I’ll stand by my assumptions. Care to attempt a cogent reply?
*Just wait till the Keystone Pipeline brings that stuff…..down too! Could have been
a terrorist act however. We have not counted that out….just yet. These events
come in three’s they say…..so hold your breath……..tomorrow.
Both OSHA and EPA have programs that regulate certain chemicals (including Anhydrous Ammonia). OSHA’s program is called PSM (meant to protect employees) and the EPA’s program is called RMP (meant to protect the public). They are virtually the same program.
This was not an Anhydrous Ammonia explosion. The ammonia storage tanks in the after pictures are still intact (and one has a small ammonia leak as indicated by the white plum coming from it). This explosion was from the Ammonium Nitrate that is stored and sold there. Anhydrous Ammonia is only explosive from 16-24% and you can’t get those concentrations in an outdoor setting. Only indoors such as the case in refrigeration plants is it possible to get those conditions.
That info came out today. If you’ll follow the links, you’ll see that I was responding to the information out (from multiple sources) at the time. At that time, people were saying that there was no ammonium nitrate on site.
That there was ammonium nitrate, yet no fire risk was identified in the relevant reports, just make matters worse along the lines of the critique I had offered.
Anhydrous ammonia is NOT explosive! Ammonium nitrate IS! They are two completely different products. Yes West fertilizer co. sold both products, the anhydrous had nothing to do with the explosion. When you start misinterpreting this information, you hurt the American Farmer
This is the quote from the article that I reproduced above:
Do you (1) deny that this is true, or (2) assert that the danger to be avoided here is something other than fire or explosion, or (3) something else?
I had presumed that it was ammonium nitrate as well, being familiar with the ANFO explosion in Oklahoma City, except that the site apparently lied and said that they had no ammonium nitrate on site, which is why anhydrous ammonia was fingered as a less likely but still viable culprit. News that they did indeed have ammonium nitrate on site didn’t come out until today.
If you have a cite that says that — even in the form of a large cloud of vapor, even mixed with other (probably hydrocarbon) material from a fertilizer factory — anhydrous ammonia cannot, in any way, either directly cause or catalyze a fire or explosion (I say “fire” because once one gets going that can cause something else to explode), then please post it and then I’ll correct it. Or, if you think that water is fine for putting out a fire in the presence of anhydrous ammonia, post a link to that and I’ll check that one out.
From above:
Mendacity, mendacity!
I still can’t reconcile that with other things I read that night and linked to above, but I’ll post a factual correction about ammonium nitrate being the source of the explosion and note the low fire risk and zero (on its own) explosive risk. Look up there.
What exactly is wrong about “Another Explosion, This Time Unintentional, Does Comparable Damage in Texas”?
(“Comparable” was to the death and casualty level in Boston, if that was unclear.)
Actually the Texass incident is MUCH worse than what happened in Boston. Not only isn’t there ANY OVERSIGHT in Texass, but apparently they don’t even have ZONING LAWS! This fertilizer/bomb plant was directly adjacent to two schools, a playground, residential housing and a retirement home.
In the press conference I heard on the radio, it seems like the last time this plant was inspected was 2006 due to a complaint and they only inspect these kinds of facilities when there is a complaint. WTF!!! Only in Texass … where industry is self-regulating.
Gosh, 14 people dead, 60 MISSING, well, dog gone it, I’ll never buy fertilizer from that plant again, that’ll teach ’em. Oh, the magic of the free (unregulated) market.
I know this is what folks like Phil Mickelson just love about Texass, low taxes because there are few regulations and no oversight. Hell you might get blown up or poisoned, but it’s all worth it ‘cuz you don’t have to pay any taxes for those frivolous government inspections. All I have to say is; don’t let the screen door hit you in the ass on your way out, Phil.
FYI Ryan;
Texas fertilizer company didn’t heed disclosure rules before blast
By Joshua Schneyer, Ryan McNeill and Janet Roberts
NEW YORK | Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:38am EDT
(Reuters) – The fertilizer plant that exploded on Wednesday, obliterating part of a small Texas town and killing at least 14 people, had last year been storing 1,350 times the amount of ammonium nitrate that would normally trigger safety oversight by the U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS).
Yet a person familiar with DHS operations said the company that owns the plant, West Fertilizer, did not tell the agency about the potentially explosive fertilizer as it is required to do, leaving one of the principal regulators of ammonium nitrate – which can also be used in bomb making – unaware of any danger there.
Fertilizer plants and depots must report to the DHS when they hold 400 lb (180 kg) or more of the substance. Filings this year with the Texas Department of State Health Services, which weren’t shared with DHS, show the plant had 270 tons of it on hand last year.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/04/20/us-usa-explosion-regulation-idUSBRE93J09N20130420
Still comparable. Only rapid and excellent emergency medical care prevented the Boston fatality toll from being much higher. Jeff Bauman’s survival, for example, is miraculous.
I just read that a plant or depot must report to DHS when it holds or stores more than 400 Lbs of ammonium nitrate. That’s not a lot. Sixteen 25 lb. bags barely fill up the bottom of a pallet. DHS has barely any fields agents, yet supposedly seven different agencies were in place that needed to be notified about this, yet none did anything, or even knew this plant existed.
Republicans consistently cry “smaller government” and are doing everything in their power to cut any federal funding .
I just passed through customs in Canada and found myself in a terribly long and slow moving line with only one agent working. Unfortunately, I was standing behind a Tea Party Bluehaired couple that kept making jokes about this is what you get under Obama. Finally,speaking truth to stupid, I commented, ” no , this is what you get with Paul Ryan’s “sequestration”, to which the Canadian official working the line replied, ” exactly, they laid off the other two agents just recently because of funding cuts.”
Smaller government sounds all fun and games , until your food gives e-Coli, your bridge collapses under your car,, your tap water ignites, or your kid is in a classroom with 50 other kids.
Just sayin’…
Gericault,
It belongs to both parties who couldn’t and wouldn’t pull their collective heads out of their asses and do the one job they are mandated to do.
Own up to your own parties responsibilities as well as pointing a finger across the aisle. Until BOTH sides of the aisle pull their heads out, it’s going to be all of us who pay the price for piss poor management of our govt.
Bullshit……and you know it.
May I point out the $3 Billion dollar surplus in California. Once we got you Republicans outta the way we turned a $20 billion dollar deficit around in two years. As a Democrat I want a government that works and provides services to greatest amount of people. Republicans want the opposite.
I graduated from West, TX and my nephew was lifted off the ground while taking video of the fire / explosion. Another nephew was pulling people out of the rubble, while my sister and another nephew were warning fire fighters of a gas leak next to the triage that was set up, causing them to move. I flew in two days later to lend a hand. So, please believe me when I state, “give it a damn minute!”
I know it sounds easy to talk about the industrialist that omitted information, but that industrialist is an 83 year old farmer, that Andy bought the place to save jobs and keep a local supply, and i can tell you, the locals are running off the lawyers trying to hand out business cards, it’s disgusting.
The reporting, this being an example, it ridiculous and presumptive. You presume the volunteer firefighters were uninformed, but pretty much everyone put here knows we get our ammonium nitrate from there (or did). We know its explosive power, we have tv too, and had it 18 years ago when the OK City bombing took place.
I’m no fan of Rick Perry, but I surely do’t believe his policy had anything to do with that plant placement in 1962, and that doesn’t have much to do with him encouraging business to move to TX.
So, what is this article about then? You take tons of unrelated memes, and you pile them on top of a tragedy, so you can make a point, unrelated to the specifics of that tragedy. You speculate on what caused and what exacerbated the fire before the investigation is complete. Where did you find they put water on anhydrous ammonia – speculation. Where did you find the fire department wasn’t trained – speculation. Why do you think they didn’t know about the ammonium nitrate – conjecture.
You want to get upset about the EPA, and we are pulling together as a community. You want to get upset at the TX governor, and we are dealing with Westboro Baptist Church assholes coming down to protest.
You make progressive look ignorant and mouthy with an uninformed opinion. Isn’t that what you claim the problem is with conservatives? Progressives need to lean more on technocratic information, and jump off this sensationalist bullshit, and yes this article qualifies, because it is politicizing a tragedy to make a point, it doesn’t have the facts to support its weight.
I find you wanting to help, and I get you feel a little helpless, but slow down, there will be plenty of time when facts come in, to reevaluate the situation, and campaign for change using known facts. So just wait a damn minute, and find out facts. Don’t be offended while others still aren’t even able to get to there homes, because the town is still half locked down.
Not a chance, at least by my hand. And lose this fascinating discussion?
Will, I appreciate your comments and will address your points when I have more time to do so. That might take a while.
Liberals and progressives, I want more from you. I want us to care in the face of tragedy, and open our hearts. I won’t quote biblical scripture, because that’s not who I am, I expect us to react with some of those timeless values that penetrate all religions, and is written on the hearts of atheist and agnostics as well… It is a time for empathy, there will be a time for discovery and a time for a call to action, but that time should not be based on unsound reasoning that borders on insulting to those involved in the tragedy. You not only insult those that lost their lives trying to prevent this tragedy, their training, their leadership but you downplay their courage by insinuating ignorance. What if they really knew the risks, would they have not tried to fight the fire and prevent this tragedy? On top of it, you insult your reader by assuming they want to move through the grieving process so fast, as to skip empathy, and go directly to judgement, and use unrelated politics to excite them.
Your article saddens me, but I am inspired by the outpouring here in West, TX… It gives me hope. I’m sure there will be a time to rage against the causes of this accident, lets find out what they really are first, and until then practice your empathy, it has been found wanting in this article.
Will,
I disagree with you, this is the PERFECT time to comment on Texas’s zoning laws and regulations, or rather their lack of them, as this was a totally AVOIDABLE tragedy.
Perfect because it shows how dangerous and catastrophic lax oversight and the “small (or no) government interference” mentality can be.
We can show compassion by trying to prevent this type of event happening again by shining a spotlight on it. There’s an old California saying; “An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure”.
As Californian’s we’ve been subjected to scorn and threats of “moving to Texass” by business and rich individuals for our strict environmental laws and building codes and the higher taxes they require. We were even subjected to a “promotional visit” by your stupid dick of a governor. Sorry, but we feel vindicated and if Texan’s were smart they’d take this as a lesson and start screaming about the mess that is Texass.
I nominate anonster for uncaring insensitive sycophantic ass-kisser of Diamond for the year – and honorable mention for being totally fucking wrong.
Please move to Texass, skallywag and take your worthless “prayers” with you.
Really?
What about the non-existant zoning laws? Where but in backasswards land would you mix residential and heavy industrial?
You can’t even compare Texass and California zoning laws ‘cuz Texass barely has any.
Perry’s being targeted because he’s trotting around the country bragging about Texass’s low taxes and LAX REGULATIONS. He’s made himself the poster boy for the wild west mess that is Texass.
Perry has been Governor for 13 years, if this plant wasn’t inspected it will directly point to Perry’s governing priorities.
From wikipedia;
Perry is the longest serving governor in Texas state history. As a result, he is the only governor in modern Texas history to have appointed at least one person to every eligible state office, board, or commission position (as well as to several elected offices to which the governor can appoint someone to fill an unexpired term, such as six of the nine current members of the Texas Supreme Court).
Coincidence?
From the Guardian;
It’s no coincidence that many of the worst such incidents occur in states affected by both austerity cuts and low or declining union membership. Texas, a proud “right-to-work state”, led the nation in fatal workplace accidents in 2011, the last year data are available, with 433 – more than twice the number of fatalities in the next largest state, New York, and nearly 50% more than California (despite having just two-thirds of California’s workforce).
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/22/texas-explosion-workplace-safety-cuts
It’s republicans though that routinely vote to cut, slash and eliminate the budgets of OHSA, EPA, CSB AND DHS.
You folks hate regulations and enforcement of those regulations and when it all goes to hell as it obviously has in Texass you want to pretend that it has nothing to do with the policies you endorse.
Well, the chickens have come home to roost and they’re shitting on your faces.
From NPR;
“Congressional Republicans are promising to scrub the government for what they say are “job killing” regulations. One of their primary targets is the Occupational Safety and Health Administration, or OSHA.
Republicans say OSHA enacts expensive rules without regard to their effect on business. They’ve proposed cutting its budget this year by 20 percent, a reduction the director says would be devastating to the agency’s efforts to protect worker safety.
OSHA has long been on the front edge of the divide between labor and management, and Democrats and Republicans. Where during the Bush administration the agency stressed voluntary compliance with worker safety standards on the part of business, the Obama administration stepped up enforcement. It hired more inspectors and increased OSHA’s budget.”
Low taxes, less regulation, little or no government oversight, self reporting, the “magic” of the free market.
These are the policies that Republicans ENDORSE, they are part of your core values and beliefs.
Those policies have consequences, sometimes very ugly and DEADLY consequences.
All your god damned prayers aren’t going to breathe life back into the dead, but inspections and oversight and emergency plans and ZONING might have PREVENTED their deaths.
Liberals BELIEVE in workplace safety, inspections, zoning and regulations. We want a more muscular OSHA and EPA… SPOT THE DIFFERENCE?
I want to prevent tragedies BEFORE they happen, YOU DON’T GIVE A RAT’S ASS until they do and then you want to wring your hands and pretend they’re unavoidable accidents. BULLSHIT!
“The reason your attitude is so abhorrent isn’t because your logic is unsound; it’s because your stereotypified conclusion might at least be partially true. It it wasn’t, everyone would dismiss you. Since it is, someone might actually believe you and your tripe.”
Hilarious, my logic is sound and I’m right, but I should shut up because someone might believe me. Ha ha ha ha ha.
Face it dumb ass, your uncomfortable because I’ve pointed out the obvious to you; POLICY HAS CONSEQUENCES and you’re on the wrong side.
You keep accusing me of “hate” while telling me to “punch myself in the face,” me thinks the little whining punk we know as Ryan is projecting.
And “NEW RULE”; before you can call any one “unamerican (sic)” you have to be smarter than a effing maggot.
But really Ryan, your adolescent hissy fits are an unnecessary embarrassment to yourself and the blog, please do us all a favor and STFU.
Seeing how the Dr is out, I guess I’m left to make a ruling on your request!
I’m not exactly sure why you’d use a fornicating invertebrate as your standard for an intelligence floor, but seeing how maggots are larvae, they do not “eff”. Your rule is rejected due to its impossible application as well as lack of creativity.
I may have entertained “effing” fruit fly, alas, you failed.
Thank you Will Lundberg – we will keep the people of West in our prayers.
“The fertilizer plant that exploded on Wednesday, obliterating part of a small Texas town and killing at least 14 people, had last year been storing 1,350 times the amount of ammonium nitrate that would normally trigger safety oversight by the U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS).”
What part of “trigger safety oversight” don’t you understand?
“For the betterment of humanity, please punch yourself in the face.”
Getting a little touchy there, Ryan, I can see it doesn’t take much to get your panties in a wad.
Reread; “… had last year been storing 1,350 times the amount of ammonium nitrate that would normally trigger safety oversight by the U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS).”
The “reporting” triggers the oversight, brain surgeon.
Your rapier like wit puts three year olds to shame.
There are a lot of comments in the string that are missing the point. First, ammonium nitrate on its own does not have the explosive power exhibited in this case. The ammonium nitrate is an oxidizing accelerant for a carbon based fuel that is required for the explosion ie. the Oklahoma City bombing that used diesel fuel and ammonium nitrate. The fact that the explosion happened after the fire department started spraying water on the fire points toward the anhydrous ammonia. Water spray on an anhydrous ammonia leak causes a rapidly expanding vapor cloud due to the strong exothermic reaction. This alone is not explosive. Now add the fact that anhydrous ammonia dissociates to nitrogen and hydrogen gas at temperatures above 850 F. Note that a orange glowing flame is about 1300 F. The explosion at this plant is almost certainly the result of a hydrogen cloud generated in or above the flames by the combination of water sprayed on the anhydrous ammonia followed by hydrogen generation and the existing fire. Once the investigation is complete and the pressure front of the blast established, it will likely reveal a hydrogen explosion.
That’s my understanding as well John F, or at least those who should know, that’s their guess.
The town did grow up around the plant as I understand it.
DHS isn’t involved in safety, as we think of it at a job site. They are involved in trying to keep it out of the hands of criminals. I’m not so sure that even if all things being equal, they had been informed, they could or would have done anything that might have prevented the accident. So far, at least I haven’t heard anyone claiming it was anything but a tragic accident.
I also agree with Will Lundberg wrote about jumping to conclusions.
There will be plenty of time, after all the facts are known, to point fingers and kick peoples butts over all this, IF they need it. The political grandstanding is just flat out ugly.
Thanks for this insightful post.
What this really points to, to my mind, is that we can have extreme tunnel vision about what does and doesn’t constitute a threat — whether fire/explosion or otherwise. Different factors — anhydrous ammonia + water leading to vapor, ammonium nitrate, hydrocarbon fuel, heat generating chemical reactions that would not otherwise occur — can come together in ways that cause disaster. Maybe all of it can’t be anticipated, but the one thing that we can damn sure demand is that people provide accurate information as to what the have on site.
It looks to me that your analysis suggests that watering the anhydrous ammonia may — that’s MAY — have been an essential factor in creating an explosion of this devastating size. Maybe a fire with ammonium nitrate and available fuel would have caused an explosion, but that explosion would surely be worse if it happened in an enclosed space engorged with hydrogen gas, a la the Hindenberg. I don’t think that it’s too much to ask that some regulator should have seen that possibility — but to do so they first have to be given the pertinent facts. Here, it seems that they pointedly were denied them.
anonster is just covering for Diamond – b/c he (Diamond) doesn’t want to have take down 2 posts in 2 weeks.
Why would Greg have to take down this post?
We already know that the owner of this plant didn’t disclose the amount of ammonium nitrate he was storing, they claimed their was no risk of fire or explosions and that there are little or no zoning laws in rural Texass.
There’s PLENTY of blame to go around already and we’re just getting started.
Your conjecture and assumption link to the City of West’s muni code Chapter 14 shows us nothing, except that they have a 5′ setback on the sides and rear. Why post that?
The important thing to consider is that any zoning changes have to be approved by the City Council, and that ” The city council will not be bound by the recommendation of the zoning board. The city council shall make the final determination.”
So who populates the city council? That’s a better question.
Ryan, you’re taking a pretty risky position here, siding with the the owner who sent at least 15 volunteer first responders (firefighters) to their death trying to fix the owner’s HUGE mistake.
His friggin’ business blew up! He was doing something WRONG!
Oh well, my fertilizer pile blew up…. accidents happen. That’s bullshit.
So you should do what? Go punch yourself in the face?
Grow up, and quit promoting violence when you run out of logical responses. That’s so Republican to resort to brutality when you run out of words.
“The link was to satisfy Anonster’s laziness.” So you put up a worthless link to nothing relevant. Talk about lazy.
You said “go punch yourself in the face” five different times.
That is not advocating violence? Pointing that out is contemptible?
My two year old nephew is more mature than you are.
Pointing out where we should focus the investigation is…. I dunno….intelligent?
Well, surprise, surprise in comparing Carson’s zoning regulations with West’s, one city has very specific and detailed requirements and the other is very, very basic.
So Ryan, guess which city with heavy industry attempts to protect its residents with setbacks, fireproof walls, fencing, bonds,capacity caps, mandatory upgrades, etc?
It sure as hell ain’t the city in Texass.
Step 4– Who should pay for the improvements? If they’re not possible, what does one do next?
Just let the dang place blow up! Hell we’re givin’ peoples jobs!
It’s a pity that you don’t understand the simplest examples of sarcasm, or pretend not to recognize it.
It’s obvious that what one does next is shut down a facility that is a danger to the public. Why do you even ask stupid questions like that ?
Really? Do you not use your brain at all? Maybe you should compare the sites yourself.
Texas had no guidelines for this plant and the city council members charged with making the regulations had no idea that the plant was potentially volatile.
Outrageous!
From Huff Post;
“Ed Sykora, who owns a local Ford dealership in West and has been displaced from his home since Wednesday, was on the town school board and city council for more than a dozen years. He doesn’t remember any discussion of whether it made sense to build new homes and a new school so close to the fertilizer plant.
“The land was available out there that way; they could get sewer and other stuff that way without building a bunch of new lines,” Sykora recalled. “There never was any thought about it. Maybe that was wrong.”
Rejcek, the farmer, said he remembered some in town who worried about building a school near the plant. “There have always been questions about that,” he said, calling that decision “a mistake.””
*******
And where was the up to date information for their disaster response teams? Oh yeah, remember that box about fire and explosions, the one they neglected to check;
“George Smith, an osteopathic physician who serves as West’s director of emergency medical services, told The Huffington Post that what unfolded here Wednesday night was never contemplated as his team of volunteer ambulance crews readied themselves to respond to calls for help.
“No explosions like this ever fit into the drills or anything like that,” Smith said, his face marked by cuts from glass and debris that hit him during the explosion. “It never crossed our minds.”
I GUESS YOU ARE A LITTLE SLOW, SO I’LL TRY AND PUT IT IN A WAY YOU MIGHT COMPREHEND.
ZONING REGULATIONS, LIKE SETBACKS, FIREWALLS AND COMPLIANCE WITH SAFETY PLANS CAN ACTUALLY HELP PREVENT OR MITIGATE THE DAMAGE FROM THESE TYPES OF INCIDENTS.
CALIFORNIA HAS THESE REGULATIONS, TEXASS DOES NOT.
I KNOW THAT THERE ARE A LOT OF BIG WORDS THAT YOU DON’T UNDERSTAND … USE A DICTIONARY.
Read it and weep, dumb ass;
California fertilizer plants regulated by local, state
By Nannette Miranda
ABC7
WEST SACRAMENTO, CA – The huge fiery explosion at a fertilizer plant in the normally quiet town of West, north of Waco, Texas is a wake-up call; it raised concerns of whether that could happen here in California.
According to the Department of Industrial Relations, there are six fertilizer manufacturers in the state, including Agriam in West Sacramento.
Fire Chief Al Terrell said there are regulations and plans that the city and company have in place in case of similar plant explosion.
Terrell said notification is the key. A siren at the Agriam facility will sound, reverse 911 will activate and authorities will go door-to-door to alert everyone of an accident.
Key personnel are also trained to respond to the hazardous situation.
“You want to have an evacuation plan in place right away,” Terrell said. “You want to establish what to do based on the nature of the incident – how you’re going to respond.”
But to prevent an explosion in the first place, local authorities, not state authorities, are required to check the facilities in person.
“We conduct annual inspections that’s planned when we go in and inspect the entire facility be also conduct unannounced ones,” Terrell said.
Local authorities work with state departments to regulate fertilizer plants. They all actually regulate these manufacturers together under what’s called the Certified Unified Protection Agency or CUPA, which delegates to locals the authority to enforce state law.
West Sacramento residents said they think that power is helpful because bureaucracy can slow response.
“I feel confident in West Sacramento, that they’re aware and they have the proper protocols in place to keep us safe,” resident Erin Smith said.
Unlike the Texas town, West Sacramento did not build neighborhoods within a mile of Agriam; still, the plant is located in an industrial park that employs many people.
“I’m definitely concerned,” employee Selina Trujillo said. ” I wouldn’t know what to do if something like that happened.”
http://www.news10.net/news/local/article/241730/2/Fertilizer-plant-emergency-plans-in-place-across-state
Yeah dumb ass, you HAVE been “advocating a position”, that regulations don’t matter and wouldn’t have made any difference and that we don’t know that Texass’s lax oversight, regulations and zoning laws contributed to this disaster.
More info. proving that Ryan Cantor doesn’t know shit;
From Huff Post;
“In June 2011 — less than two years before the explosion — the private company that owns the plant, the West Fertilizer Co., filed an emergency response plan with the Environmental Protection Agency stating that there was “no” risk of fire or explosion at the facility. The worst scenario that plant officials acknowledged was the possible release of a small amount of ammonia gas into the atmosphere.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/22/west-fertilizer_n_3134202.html
*****
Hey Ryan, how could the first responders develop an emergency plan if they didn’t know the risks?
YOU’VE BEEN PROVEN WRONG, DUMB ASS.
TIME TO CRY; UNCLE!
“Let’s say you’re right and the place wasn’t inspected.
Who should’ve inspected it? Why would it have mattered? What would have changed?”
Ryan Cantor
1) We do KNOW that this plant wasn’t inspected in years (unlike Ca. fertilizer plants) and that matters , dumb ass because inspectors have expertise. They can recognize when an emergency plan doesn’t jive with what they are seeing and they can tell when things aren’t being stored correctly or chemicals are posing a risk to the surrounding community. INSPECTIONS MATTER.
2) We do KNOW that the owners weren’t honest on their disclosure forms.
3) We do KNOW that the emergency medical disaster team in town had no idea that the plant could explode because the plant owners didn’t disclose it. (I never said that the first responders were responsible, just another Ryan reading comprehension fail)
4) We do KNOW that Texass’s zoning laws are lax.
5) We do KNOW that the city council charged with making the zoning laws never really thought about any dangers associated with the plant.
Unlike you dumb ass, some of us can put two and two together and get four.
Feel free to lash out and try and insult me with your juvenile taunts, I know it can frustrating to be so slow (maybe your special-ed teacher could give you some play-doh to punch).
Jeezus, you’re like a three year old, but wwhhhyyyyy?
“Inspected by whom?”
How about the local fire department and they can make sure that the plant is conforming at least to state safety regulations (like California does).
“What are the inspectors inspecting?”
God you’re dumb, the plant itself, inside and out.
“How does one identify proper storage of hazardous chemicals?”
People go to a place called … SCHOOL, where they take classes in things like … CHEMISTRY. There’s also a thing called… TRAINING, where professionals are taught how to perform inspections and they learn the RULES and REGULATIONS.
“Who certifies the inspectors?”
The Federal government certifies its inspectors and the states certify theirs.
“How often should an inspection occur?”
Gosh, I think California’s plan sounds good; one announced yearly inspection and some unannounced inspections.
“How do you know the owners weren’t honest on their disclosure forms?”
From Huffpo;
“In June 2011 — less than two years before the explosion — the private company that owns the plant, the West Fertilizer Co., filed an emergency response plan with the Environmental Protection Agency stating that there was “no” risk of fire or explosion at the facility. The worst scenario that plant officials acknowledged was the possible release of a small amount of ammonia gas into the atmosphere.”
Fertilizer long has been recognized as a dangerous combustible material. One variety, ammonium nitrate — a pellet-shaped product typically shipped in large bags — caused the deadliest industrial accident in American history, the explosion of a ship at the port of Texas City in 1947, which took the lives of more than 500 people.”
Here’s the link to the form;
http://www.rtknet.org/db/rmp/rmp.php?facility_id=100000135597&database=rmp&detail=3&datype=T
“How do you know the operator knew the plant could explode? ”
This was their plant and it was their responsibility to know.
” If they didn’t, why should they have known? (And yes, you did: “Hey Ryan, how could the first responders develop an emergency plan if they didn’t know the risks?”)”
Because they were dealing with DANGEROUS, VOLATILE AND DEADLY CHEMICALS!
The first responders were relying on the plant operators to know and fully disclose the risks associated with their plant so that they (the first responders) can train for and develop the proper emergency response.
“What, exactly, needs to change in the zoning requirement?”
A good start is not allowing a dangerous, volatile heavy industry to be next to two schools, residential housing and a playground.
“How would Texas incorporate the changes you propose?”
Sigh, I can’t believe I’m doing this … by incorporating them.
“At the municipal, county, or state level?”
At whatever level it takes to ensure the safety of its citizenry.
“Who assures conformance?”
Again, in California the local fire department does the inspections and reports to the state and then the state has to enforce their regulations. The Feds if they had any money (remember; policy matters) should be insuring conformance of their rules.
“How do older facilities adapt to new changes?”
By investing the money it takes to bring their facilities up to code.
“Who pays for it?”
There are costs associated with doing business and for the inspectors and the inspections there’s something called … TAXES.
“What if the changes aren’t practicable?”
Gee … public safety vs letting an unsafe facility to continue because the regulations are too tough … hmmm. I have to side with demagogue … SHUT THEM DOWN.
“Why didn’t the council consider danger associated with the plant?”
Because these kinds of decisions shouldn’t be left to city councils. They should be developed by people with expertise, like safety engineers.
“Why should an elected official, who has absolutely no training in process safety management, weigh in on a technical decision? ”
That’s the problem with Texass, those low taxes and lax regulations mean that nobody with the proper expertise is making sure the right decisions are made.
“Why shouldn’t they?”
Because this isn’t the sort of thing left to amateurs, peoples lives are on the line. Most city council members don’t have the background to decide these sorts of issues.
Clear enough for you, dumb ass?
What if the inspectors were having a bad hair day? What if the weather was bad. What if the stars weren’t aligned? What is fertilizer? What is its chemical composition? Why does it smell? Can a smell explode? Why is Texas so big? Is Texas too big to inspect? Do big belt buckles help or hurt inspections? What if change is scary? Do you like to scare people? Why shouldn’t they be scared? Who going to pay for frightening people? How will they pay? Who’s on first?
Someone (RC) has taken up the Winship strategy of asking a plethora of inane questions when losing a thread……
What if we can’t find the missing person’s body? Are they really dead? What if their house is gone too? How do we know they even existed?
Who pays their credit card bill? What do we do with their tax refund?
Where did all of the fertilizer go? Since it got spread all over the county, does everybody owe the plant money?
LOL! Thank you!
Taking your line of reasoning (and I shudder to use the word reason with anything having to do with you, dumb ass) to its logical conclusion; how can anyone know anything?
In Ryan (aka, dumb ass) Cantor’s world it’s all too, too complicated. No city/state/country in the history of the world could possibly have figured out how to keep its people safe from dangerous industries. Not chemical plants, not oil refineries, not nuclear weapons and storage facilities …WE’RE ALL TOAST!
EXCEPT THAT THEY HAVE YOU FUCKING MORON!
CONGRATULATIONS! Now EVERYONE who has read your comments wants to “punch themselves in the face” just to knock out any memories of the simple minded and REPETITIVE DRIVEL that they’ve just read!
Irrelevant.
Really? Is it your suggestion that only people with those skills can legitimately comment on this subject?