(Picture courtesy of the L.A. Times.)
Prop. 8 protesters are stopping traffic and causing trouble all over Southern California – and they are NOT helping their cause. No one opposed Prop. 8 more than I did – but the fight is over. We lost. Now this needs to be settled by the courts or we need to launch another initiative to reverse Prop. 8.
In the meantime the bitter truth is that Democrats passed Prop. 8. Many black and Latino voters went along with their Republican counterparts and sunk the dreams and aspirations of the GLBT community. And Barack Obama himself did not help much in this battle.
Protesting does nothing except anger the rest of the public and inconvenience thousands. Not good! It is time to suck it up and move on. These demonstrations are only going to backfire. Just like the Gavin Newsom comments in the Yes on 8 ad below.
The GLBT community needs to show everyone else that they are law-abiding, decent people. Going nuts in the streets doesn’t cut it. Go home folks. This battle is over. We lost. And Democrats were the ones who put Prop. 8 over the top. That is the bitter pill you need to swallow. Remember that the California Libertarian paryt firmly opposed Prop. 8. I doubt you will find ten California Libertarians who voted for this proposition.
Calling those who supported Prop 8 “haters” and “bigots” and “homophobes” did not, and does not, help their cause.
Junior,
You are probably right. But I do think that history will look back at Prop. 8 and judge it as bigotry.
There was a time when folks thought slavery was OK too.
BTW, I understand the issue is that churches should not be forced to approve gay marriages – but what about those churches that DO approve of gay marriage? Should the other churches be able to tell THEM what to do?
“No one opposed prop 8 more than me”
Classic Pedroza. Actually, thousands of people opposed it more than you. They are out still fighting it.
Stop trying to be everything to everyone Pedroza. You either are against it still, or you are not. Saying they are hurting their cause is the same thing they said about african americans in the south 40 years ago.
“I doubt you would find 10 Liebertarians who voted against it”
Another classic Pedroza. First, find me ten relevant Libertarians… And FYI, it was the Republicans and DTS who put it over the top. The CA Dem Party was in strong opposition, and actually put their money where their mouths were. How much money did the CA LIbertarian party spend? Oh wait, they are completely irrelevant to the state political discourse because no one cares about them…
I voted Yes, but not because I think queers have hijacked the word “marriage”…I’m tired of radical judges ignoring legitimate Props like 22 and legislating from the bench.
We should have a law codified that churches have the right to their own criteria for marriages to ease the fears the Yes on 8 people have spread. Such as you have to be a member of the church, and the couples either have to be any couple pairing, same or opposite.
Unitarians do not mind hosting gay marriages , but the catholic church does not want to. Both churches should have the right to do what they need to do.
Outreach is the key. Go into the union halls, reach out to them. Go into the minority communities reach out there. Reach out to Republicans too. I even voted for McCain and Voted No on 8. 🙂
Prop 8 is going to spark a major dialogue. And if the courts do not repeal it, we have to start the conversation on why equality is good for ALL OF US straight and gay.
#4,
Today’s Times reveals that Prop. 8 won because of Democratic black and Latino voters. Deal with it.
Arturo, wonderful post. You have a real talent for divisive and -now- virtually irrelevant blather. This site is a real hotbed of libertAryan debate… all 12 members of the party that own computers regularly post. Congrats on your council run, BTW, Mickey is laughin his tuchas off.
Art
You calling everyone that voted Yes on 8 a bigot and hater is getting old.
I am not a bigot nor a hater. I also do not need to explain myself to the likes of you.
I voted for you, supported you, and my whole family did. I guess that does not matter now because we are haters and bigots..right???
Get over yourself. Don’t forget your wife is a hater and bigot also.
Danielle,
With all due respect I never called everyone who supported Prop. 8 a hater. As you stated, my own wife voted for it.
However I do think that the people who ran this campaign and the people who put it on the ballot are questionable to say the least. I know many of them personally. They are not a nice bunch of people.
Did you even read the post above? Honestly? The thrust of the post is that the No on 8 protesters need to go home. How is that a message of hate? I am befuddled by your comments. They are not relevant to this post.
Rintrah,
I must say I don’t understand your animus towards me. I can only imagine that you are some sort of Democratic Party hack. I hope you are proud of your fellow Democrats on the Santa Ana City Council.
For those who didn’t know, the Libertarian Party of California was against Prop 8 as was every other Lib I talked to. Whoever says otherwise hasn’t got a clue. Oh, and peaceful protests were the cornerstone of the first civil rights movement and were very effective. Now they’re a liability? How easily we forget.
AFH,
SMS
Sarah,
I would not call these protests peaceful. They have blocked traffic, forced allocation of dozens of armed cops, and generally acted uncivilized.
This isn’t helping the cause. Did no one learn from that awful Gavin Newsom commercial?
Art –
All whites are not the same. All Latinos are not the same. All blacks are not the same. All gays are not the same. And finally, all protesters are not the same.
SMS
Sarah.
Not sure what your point is, but I know what MY point is. These protests are not helping, period. They are just pissing people off even more. Again, this falls in line with that awful Gavin Newsom commercial. This is not the way to affect social change.
I am bummed out about Prop. 8 too. But these protests are not going to do anything positive. They are just ridiculous.
Art –
My point is that the protesters aren’t thinking, ‘hey let’s vengefully screw up traffic today.’ Plus, depriving someone of their right to drive on an already usually packed street for a few minutes is a lot more innocuous than having a slim majority of California voters tell you how to live your entire life. Although I wouldn’t personally participate in these marches, we’re going to have to agree to disagree on this issue.
SMS
Sarah,
I an not looking to deprive anyone of anything. If they want to protest that is their right. My point is this is NOT helping their cause. They are not changing any minds or hearts with this activity. If anything they are turning more folks against them. This is counter-productive activity.
Art you are 100% right!!!!!!!!!
While every blogger on the Juice knows that I recommended a YES vote on Prop 8, until now I have sat on the sidelines regarding this ongoing story. As you know I also recommended John McCain for president. We lost, Obama won, and like many in my party we accept the defeat. So too should all those who opposed Prop 8.
In fact I believe fellow Juice blogger Ron Winship did a report card on ballot measures where my recommendations did not fare too well as stacked up against other Juice bloggers.
Folks. The Nov 4, 2008 election is over. Both sides engaged in the Prop 8 fight worked hard to convince voters to support them.
During the presidential campaign there were allegations of illegal credit card contributions to Obama from outside the country. Here again that’s now old news. Yet the NO people on Prop 8 are hammering the Mormon and Catholic Churches for their legal support on the YES side.
While I have been an active protester for various causes over the years, including carrying signs on Hollywood and Vine, there comes a time when you need to move on.
There are three kinds of human beings
Men
Women
Gays
What? is there? Gays are a new type of people? and need specail rights becuase of the sex acts they do?
Maybe there are more types of people than 3.
Everyone should just shut up. Game over.
What next? Shall we go back to Mexican-only schools in Orange County and Black/white only drinking fountains?
Civil Rights have always been a process, Art. Please don’t tell others to give up on their dreams and rights just because it seems inconvenient at this time. Whatever happened to the addage of doing the right thing and having the principles to stand behind that effort?
Red,
I am sure that these demonstrations are cathartic, but in terms of political strategy they are stupid. Attorne General Jerry Brown already said he is going to fight Prop. 8.
People can do what they want, but mark my words – these protests are not going to compel anyone to change their minds. They will in fact most likely push more people into the “yes” column.
I fought this measure as hard as anyone – but the fight is over. We lost. Now we need to fight in the courts – and we need to change hearts and minds. Acting uncivil in public is going to hurt the GLBT community’s image.
Larry –
I’m sick of churches legislating morality and then resorting to name calling when their efforts are made moot by so-called ‘activist judges.’ If an ‘activist judge’ interprets the constitution, then he/she is doing their job.
Morality cannot be dictated by the constitution, but equality can. That, plus the OODLES of church dollars contributed to it and the mere simple majority vote necessary to make it so, make Prop 8 a deeply flawed piece of legislation that will not stand the test of time. You can mark my words on that.
The LDS should be ashamed. Using gay marriage as a smokescreen to cover their own generations of polygamy is absolutely despicable, as are those who took the dirty money to run this campaign: Frank Schubert, Jeff Flint, and Matt Cunningham.
The IRS needs to strip the LDS (and maybe even the Catholics) of their tax-exempt status. Immediately. What they did is against the law.
The Yes on 8 people even tried to lie and then to play the VICTIM! Free speech my ass! Smaller government? Since when do ADDITIONAL laws equate to SMALLER government?
While I firmly believe in the rights of churches to define marriage any way they see fit for their own purposes, I also know that they are going outside of their scope by trying to tell the government how to define its legal component for the rest of us.
SMS
“Not all marriages are considered equally desirable, and I think that’s a fair inference from the way the law has always been,” said Armand Mauss, spokesman for the Church of Latter Day Saints in Orange County. “It’s not just a discrimination that the Mormons think is reasonable: It’s a discrimination that the majority of voters think is a reasonable one.”
-The Daily Pilot – linked to on the front page of Matt Cunningham’s blog, Red County
A reasonable discrimination? Who knew there was such a thing?
SMS
I fought this measure as hard as anyone – but the fight is over. We lost.
Art, I know losing is a discouraging event. However, this dialogue needs to continue. Those commercials were scary and misleading. More information needs to be exchanged.
As a candidate, you lost the fight and that is that. Until next time, should you elect to do that.
This issue is much bigger than one sneaky vote campaign on a very busy ballot in an immensely popular election. This will continue to be a process. I hope you reconsider your words that will just be understood to discourage our brothers and sisters who deserve equal protections that everyone else enjoys. I know you don’t mean to be hurtful, but your words are going to sting people who look up to you. Please rejoin the efforts to achieve equality for all.
Amen, Sarah. 😉
Just when my wife was about to convince me to take a no stance on this position some nice lady at my workplace had two nails placed in her BMW tires.
So she lost about $800 to get them replaced but it sealed the deal for myself a other workers who were really upset that some people would act like terrorist to silence her rights to freedom of speech.
I’m sure this happened alot around here and was probably unreported but result in alot of yes votes
Jose,
A couple of questions: What made you think it was political? Were there threats or other tangible facts to support your fears?
Why wouldn’t she just get her tired patched up? I’ve picked up road hazards like nails and screws and they are fixable.
I haven’t gone to any of those protests, even though I keep getting e-mails inviting me, and I’ve been to a hundred war protests etc., and you all know how strongly I feel against Prop 8. It just seems kind of counter-intuitive to protest against a majority vote, makes us look like sore losers I think.
Prop 8 will be challenged in court and I hope it fails, and of course the anti-gay folks will go back to bitching about “activist judges.” And then in a year or two when something similar is on the ballot again justice and progress should prevail, judging by how much progress we’ve made since Prop 22’s 60% win eight years ago.
Sorry, my gay friends, I’m mortified that so many of my fellow breeders are such mean-spirited dillwads.
Red vixen:
I work in Santa Ana and commute to work from Anahiem via a quick stop in Garden grove, all street communiting, and I have never been struck by two nails on opposing back tires. Maybe ten years or so…
I not sure the reason she got replacements. Maybe some Good year sales person took advantage of her but that’s another issue. I believe it happened and I pretty much decided to ignore my wife’s arguments concerning this issue and believe other co-workers felt bad for what happened.
If you had a big “no on prop 8” sticker and woke up the next morning and saw your tires barely inflated I’m sure you wouldn’t make the same assumption.
Red Vixen, Sarah and Vern.
A sneaky vote campaign. Your side lost. Get over it already.
And your side did not spend any money opposing Prop 8?
Don’t talk to me about campaign expenditures. When we opposed the 30-year Meas M fuel tax extension the supporters spent over $one million while we put up a few signs and spent less than $1,000.
PS: We lost to the same Jeff Flint in that campaign.
What about the guy who manages properties on Broadway who told tennants in his building not to have No on 8 signs up?
Sorry, Larry. You’re wrong. You’ll see that California will remain free and fully supported for civil rights. We lead and the rest of the county will follow.
We’ve long abolished cross racial marriage laws. The rest of our country followed, for the most part. This is just the next level of civil rights that should be afforded to all.
It will be defeated, Larry.
SA LGBT
Without knowing the lease agreements I cannot respond to your question. I can say that I was very active in a local city council race where merchants told us that they were unable to put up our candidate signs in their businesses. In one case they were part of a chain. As an owner of rental property I did ask our tenants if they were receptive to my installing the candidate sign and they said they had no objections. If they didn’t agree I was willing to honor their wishes but that challenge never happened. Without looking at the standard lease agreement I am not sure what restrictions, if any, apply.
Red Vixen.
How did your cause get by prior to the Prop 22 Initiative? Let me see, California has been a state since what, 1850?
As stated here in several comments I lived through the civil rights movement.
The Civil Rights act was signed in 1964. If you feel that you were overlooked in that legislation where was your group activity during the past 40 years? It was not until we passed Prop 22 that you started to get worked up over this cause.
It was not until we passed Prop 22 that you started to get worked up over this cause.
I am not sure what you are referencing. You certainly don’t yet know where I am coming from. I am not in any protected group or in any oppressed minority group. I enjoy full status.
But I do know right from wrong. I disagree strongly with taking away rights from California citizens. I won’t be wasting my time in the streets right now, but I will give money when it counts and I will take opportunities to speak out to the injustice of a religious organization barnstorming into our state with the intention of taking away the right for adults to marry whom they choose. I think that’s pretty messed up.
“Civil rights have always been a process.”
Yes, a process that is hard fought and not always won through pursuit of only the legal channels within the government. I’m not sure if you are trying to say that protests are not effective or that people shouldn’t protest. I for one, am happy that since the last time Californians voted on this issue, approximately 10% of people have changed their minds. It’s just a matter of time. I think the protests keep the issue on people’s minds. Our state also needs to revisit the idea that a constitutional amendment can pass with merely 50%+1 vote and that you only need a crazy idea and a lot of money to put one on the ballot.
Our state also needs to revisit the idea that a constitutional amendment can pass with merely 50%+1 vote and that you only need a crazy idea and a lot of money to put one on the ballot.
This came up during this latest round of protests and I think it is an excellent point. I think the protests are entirely appropriate. I think that the Mormon Church is going to get a big dose of bad PR in the process, too.
Jose,
Thanks for the response. Basically you guys came to that conclusion and I can see that line of thinking. However, what I do not understand is why don’t you actually use some critical thinking skills in the process of figuring out how to vote on an item, rather than some little negative vignette that may or may not have actually been the case? What about looking into the issue and how it may impact others?
If your marriage was valid last month, but this month it is no longer legal, how would YOU feel about fairness in our state. We all have to stick up for one another to keep what freedoms we have.
REd vixen
I guess I’m just an average Joe or Jane voter who desn’t get caught up in all the sansational commericals(Willie Horton, Polly Klass, Pete Wilson, Gavin Newsome) and can apply my critical thinking skills.
Yes, I see and learn and can really use my critical thinking skills greatly when I see people protesting and rally down the streets. That really helps me figure out this issue. Get a new logic, this is not working.
Regarding the fairness issue, what if something was illegal a year ago and up to to 3rd it was legal, wher is the fairness when two judges overrule the majority of voters.
Jose,
Just how would marriage protections for all impact you and your family? Do you agree with religious organizations raising money to influence elections?
I think the protests may have a very postive effect. Some of the Yes on 8 voters from other minority groups might wake up when they see people in the streets, remember some of their own civil rights struggles, and think “What have I just done?”. I’m glad to see people fighting back! I participated in the Laguna Beach protest last night, and it was a very positive experience.
I want all you Obama fans to stop celebrating and think for one minute. Due to your successful “get out the vote” effort you brought more African-Americans into the voting booth to vote for the first black president. And guess what, you calculated incorrectly. Many of them are of the Baptist faith and voted YES on Prop 8. Thanks for all your hard work. Larry Gilbert, Prop 8 supporter.
Larry,
Just remember that President Elect Barack Obama will have control over Supreme Court nominations for the next four years. No more Alito-Roberts style judges for now! The balance of the Court will remain the same, as Ginsburg and Stevens will probably retire and be replaced by like-minded Justices, hopefully much younger Justices. If Prop 8 came before the current Supreme Court, I believe there is a very good chance it would be struck down. Replace Stevens and Ginsburg with much younger pro-civil-rights Justices, and we could be looking at nationwide marriage equality much sooner than expected! Maybe the Yes on 8 supporters should have been working harder for McCain rather than spending so much time taking rights away from people.
If you believe that the Mormon and Catholic churches should lose their tax-exempt status for endorsing Yes on 8, would you say the same for a non-profit like the California Teachers Association that gave $1 million to No on 8?
Yes, quid pro quo!
Political logic that actually makes sense!
Neither should be active in the political debate as they were so blatantly this last election cycle. Unions, religious institutions and charitable foundations should not be allowed to roll in the mud like everyone else. It sure would clean up a whole boatload of other issues in the political world too. Although I think the Dems. would have much more to lose in the process than anyone else in the mud puddle.
Overall I think it might actually drain some of the water out of the mud puddle.
‘If you believe that the Mormon and Catholic churches should lose their tax-exempt status for endorsing Yes on 8, would you say the same for a non-profit like the California Teachers Association that gave $1 million to No on 8?‘
As Sarah Palin would say, ‘yeah, sure, you betcha!’ Fair is fair… but I decry the churches because they violate the 1st Amendment and Jefferson’s separation doctrine.
SMS
Do I hear a groudswell for campaign finance reform?
Where is McCain-Feingold anyway?
Folks. The CTA and the churches will NOT lose their non profit status. While churches cannot promote candidates of any party they can engage in other ballot measure issues.
Carl Weibel.
You bet I was concerned about the future appointment of federal judges including the Supreme Court. Enough said.
Red Vixen.
while you are not happy that church members participated in this election perhaps you can tell me how conservative teachers feel when the CTA used part of their union dues in the same battle? Opt-Out and expose yourself for not going along with the flow?