Streetcars? You have to be kidding me. The O.C. Register reported yesterday that the City of Santa Ana’s planners and City Council are now looking to spend MILLIONS on a streetcar system that would connect the train station to the civic center plaza and the downtown area.
How much money are we talking about? “The initial loop could cost tens of millions of dollars; by some estimates, the average cost for a streetcar line is around $15 million per mile. Santa Ana would use money from the Orange County Transportation Authority and federal grants to help offset that cost.”
Unbelievable. But it gets even better. “Santa Ana is “very serious” about streetcars, said Public Works Director James Ross, who was part of the city’s delegation to Portland. “We get pretty excited about what a good fit a streetcar would be.” Wait a minute…is that the SAME Jim Ross who has utterly failed to maintain our streets? The same guy who has allowed our water and sewage infrastructure to crumble in disrepair? What nerve this guy has!
And what is up with this fixation with Portland? “Portland opened its first stretch of streetcar line in 2001, and has used it ever since as a big draw for tourists, office workers, new residents
Art,
You are a spoil sport. Ruining the fun for Mayor P and his clowncil members with facts and figures that act as a huge pin prick to deflate their arguments.
Getting a pretty new street car system is way more fun than fixing potholes and repairing SA notorious roadways. Kill joy!
😉
How is this any different from the CenterLine debacle? It costs too much. It runs in the street, competing with automobile traffic. And your great choice of a picture points out that riders embarking or disembarking have to walk across a lane of traffic to do so. Irvine’s ridiculous plan for a streetcar documents that these things run at an average of about 11mph. Streetcars have been in use in San Francisco for years, but not for the purpose of developing businesses around them — they’re designed to move commuters to and from the central business district — and on their primary path (Market St.), they’re UNDERGROUNDED, along with the BART.
This is a ridiculously stupid idea and won’t serve to move anyone around as the only people who use transit in Santa Ana are trying to get the hell out of it, and a city streetcar won’t go that away.
The Red Cars went away long ago (for more good reasons than bad), and this nostalgia doesn’t serve the needs and certainly shouldn’t have this kind of money wasted on it.
I agree Art. What is Pulido thinking? What we should do in Santa Ana is
model ourselves after Avenida de la Revulacion en T.J. We have much more
in common with our brothers and sisters to the South and I bet if you
check the demographics it’s almost identical. We should formalize a
Sister City relationship (even the political junkets to learn more about
their city will be cheaper!) with Tijuana and then go about taking the
best from that city and making our residents feel more comfortable here in
Santa Ana. First we need to do away with Code Enforcement aka Community
Preservation. Then we need to relax our city codes to allow more freedom
of commerce. A donkey painted like a zebra here, a few hundred more
venders selling fruit, ceramic ware, blankets, and other goodies and we
can capture the look, feel,and smell of that popular tourist destination.
You might think I’m joking but I am not. Oliveris Street in L.A. and Old
Town San Diego are popular with tourists and we can take that popularity
and take it to the next level. Don
Poster 3,
Interesting idea. Pulido has spent his entire life running away from the fact that he too is a Mexican. And he has not allowed our city to embrace its rich culture.
BTW, I forgot to mention the Benavides quotes in the Register:
For now, the question is: “Is this a concept that would work well in Santa Ana,” said Councilman David Benavides, a member of the city’s transportation committee.
But he added: “I’m pretty excited about the opportunity and the possibilities for our community.”
There you have it. Pulido’s puppet is dancing for him again. Here is a thought for David…next time the media calls – keep your mouth shut! It’s called damage control.
Same goes for Bustamante. What a pair he and Benavides are! How do you say “Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum” in Spanish? Benavides and Bustamante…
Posters 1 and 2,
Our city leaders are something else, aren’t they? Just when you think they can’t possibly be any dumber, they find a way to look worse than ever.
Maybe Pulido should retire and go work in one of those hobby stores that sell toy trains?
If the leaders want to present a city that is helping itself to become more updated and usable, they should consider the quiet trains implementation. That would help the actual residents quite a bit. Irvine is working on an underpass on Jeffrey to quiet the trains. It is amazing the difference once they put in this kind of structure. They did it years ago for Culver and it improved the quality of life for hundreds of residents who were within earshot of the train whistles. For anyone who lives close to the tracks, you literally have to stop speaking on the phone when the trains sound their warning whistles. The underpasses eliminate that intrusive noise.
There was also quite a bit of flak for the Irvine Great Park Orange balloon. Well, that doesn’t cost millions and millions of dollars and it was criticised as an expensive gimmick. Why does Pulido think a trolly system will be unopposed? It looks like a very expensive experiment that will interfere with the normal traffic flow in the busiest part of the city for years to come.
What’s next? Exploring the possibility of locks and dams so that the city leaders can take a taxpayer funded junket to Amsterdam?
#3 – You already have the necessary TJ arch and the big, open pit in the middle of the city with the obligatory half demolished/half constructed building in the middle with billboard announcements compliments of the city leaders and Mike Harrah. I think that’s enough TJ-ish. That kind of scene can go on for a decade or two in TJ. Just how long will it look like that in SA?
It’s time for Santa Ana to do right by the residents and fix and improve what has been neglected for so long before suggesting that they take a third world approach or that they take any more trips to white, highly educated communities for “good ideas” on how best to serve SA’s unique needs.
Both of those opposite end of the spectrum ideas are real stretchers. It’s boring to make decisions to fill pot holes and avert train noise – but those things are what well-led cities would consider no-brainer improvements.
Seems like a pretty forward thinking idea on Pulido’s part. You admit that traffic is horrible. This is way to get people out of their cars and into public transportation. I’m sure the local environmentalist will love this idea. It sounds promising.
There’s also the issue of “catenary” wiring — the overhead power cables which must be supported from telephone and/or street light poles. This infrastructure is expenisive, very visually intrusive and subject to fairly vigourous maintenance. Irvine must deal with the same issues, and the Mayor knows about them as he sits on the Great Park Board which looked at the same system.
Anyone familiar with San Francisco knows how extensively this cabling takes over the city infrastructure as they have both electric streetcars and electric trolley buses. Is this the kind of infrastructure anyone’s going to want in front of their homes? No wonder this mess costs $18 million a mile compared to pracitically nothing for the OCTA’s bus system — which takes up the same amount of surface street space. If the Council wants a local circulator (do people really need to get between the buildings in the Civic Center?), they should look at Long Beach’s “Passport” system which works quite well in the downtown area.
Well if city leadres are trying to be more like Portland then why not adopt their “yelloe bike” system as well? A couple years ago Portland took hundreds of unclaimed bicycles from their police warehouse, added a few hundred more from donors and non-profits, painted them bright yellow, and scattered them throughout the city to be used as an alternative to public/ private transportation. Bikes could be left at about every bus stop, retail center, apartment complex, etc. The bikes were a hit with conservationists and provided low income residents with another choice for local transport and quick trips around the city. You know how many bikes one street car could pay for? But, what would happen if such a bike turned up north of 17th? Blight!!! Ahhhh!
Come on, the bike plan would be more practical than street cars.
Sorry to take up more space Art, but you can look up the yellow bike project online. Its been successful for years and still going! Portland Yellow Bike!
Step in the right direction with encapsulating leaders in “” but these people don’t deserve to be in that category. They are slimy politicians that need NOT BE REELECTED. “Anybody but Pulido” (Stolen from “Anybody but Bush”)
Everything about Santa Ana I read on OJ makes it clear, they are trying to SHORTCUT a true renewal in their city. You can’t just focus on bringing in the new housing, the larger tax revenues, etc. without focusing on what and who you’re displacing and what ELSE needs to go on in your city. (Adjacent infrastructure improvement, regular street sweeping, etc.) Several LA County cities understand this concept and know how to approach things COMPREHENSIVELY so why don’t Santa Ana politicians take a field trip to municipalities in their own back yard and get an education on what they should do!? You can’t overlay Portland on Santa Ana no matter what type of adhesive you use.
San Diego has a trolly system, and that city is next to Mexico, and Mexican use that system too.
So how does trolly = gentrification?
It should be a no cost system just like the freeways and roadways and paid for by higher gas taxes, DMV taxes, etc.
#11
“Everything about Santa Ana I read on OJ makes it clear…”
You can’t believe everything you read on this blog. Or any other blog, for that matter.
n2justice,
The previous poster,I believe is saying “after reading everything about Santa Ana on OJ it is clear…”his/her INTERPRETATION is what he/she is stating.He/she does not believe everything read on the blog.It is his/her interpretation of the commentary in regards to Santa Ana.Bad attempt to minimize the OJ,again.
“You can’t believe everything you read on this blog. Or any other blog, for that matter.”
Very true. However as the poster #11 states, it does appear that the city has a habit of taking shortcuts, rather than critically thinking things through.
Kind of like the current federal government. What exit strategy? We figured we’d win this war!
Hopping into something that the leaders are sure will work, only to have it backfire badly.
Is this “Son of Centerline?” Did anyone take a survey of the Santa ana residents to ask who will ride this new system? My guess is that it will be supported by the very same people taking the current and flexible bus system? So I guess we can park all of the busses in mothballs until this new concept fails to produce the pie in the sky outcome floated by these transortation geniuses.
In time “big brother” in Orange County will agree on social engineering in which all new housing will not include any parking provisions for the owners forcing all of us into some form of mass transit. Is this Phase One?
Cook,
The point here is that the plan to mirrior Portland,that is assosiated with the Renaissance Strategic Plan, is illogical based on demogaphics and socioeconomic reasons.Central Santa Ana which is the area of this development has a population of roughly 195,000 residents that are 95% Hispanic with a yearly household income of $60-70 thousand.These residents mostly spend their money within the city.There is a yearly loss of $250 million from this area according to a recent city funded study(the Santa Ana Drill Down Study) due to inadequate city planning to service the needs of these residents.These Hispanic residents and those from nieghboring cities produce a sales tax from the 4th Street retail district only $80 million below that of the Main place Mall.There are no plans to replace te Main Place Mall with an experimental plan.There are plans to invest,enhance and expand the Mall though.Why not the same for the 4th street Hispanic retail district?The Hispanic residents,current business owners and property owners wish the opportunity to be included in this development to secure a quality beautiful retail district to service their existing customer base.The community wants a piece of the pie.Does it make sense to not invest ,enhance and expand this succesful sales tax base? Is it not illogical to replace a successful retail area servicing 195,000 surrounding residents with a plan to service 4,000 new residents.Is this a prudent thought out business decision?Why not invest and expand on what is already successful in this area.If not , why not?If not, the perception of gentrification becomes real.
n2jstice,
#11 I believe is saying that after reading the comments associated with Santa Ana his interpretation was what he posted.The idea of a meaningful blog is where there are many points of view so that the reader can make up his own mind.It seems that #11 did.Nice attempt at minimizing this blog,again
#13
Right on! That’s why I put very little stock in what you post on the OJ.
Me thinks the Council should 1st think about other improvements to the city before even coming close to considering this.
Residents who use Mass Transit in this city already have plenty of OCTA Routes to choose from that run to Midnight (at least on weekdays, anywho!), and including 3 that run 24 hours, all week long.
Well ..I guess I know why the sleezy City Council has chosen to NOT televise tonights City Council Meeting.The topics are all about alternate transit and the Renessaince Specific Plan”. They are calling it a work study session. Reveiw and discuss a Transit Master Plan including reuse of Pacific Electric Right of Way and “Go Local” and related transit oriented development opportunities and B Review and discuss highlights of the Renaissance Plan outreach efforts and schedule. The meeting is not in the usual spot.They have it scheduled 6:00 @ City Hall 2nd Floor,conferance room # 229,20 Civic Center Plaza.
Another ploy to make it difficult for the public to attend.
Sounds like they are up to their usual tactics.
Hope they are surprised by the multitude of people who decide to attend!
Poster 21,
Thanks for the update! I do encourage our readers to go to the meeting. I am still in Chicago through Wednesday, but I am sure that some of our OJ bloggers will be there at the meeting.
Viva la Revolucion!
Art, you won’t be happy until SanTana become Tijuana north. I’m sure you will let YOUR neighborhood in Park Santiago become overrun with vendor trucks, donkey’s painted like zebras, strip clubs, and taco benders on every corner. SanTana is such a joke.
Let it go Art.You’r pro illegal alien BS has gotten old quick. You’ve just lost this reader for good.
Art,
While your posts are always entertaining to read, im starting to agree with #24. You seem so blinded by your pro-immigrant stance that anything not directly in their best interest is deemed by you as racism, gentrification and “de-mexicanizing”. Did you forget other people live in Santa Ana besides illegal aliens? Go back and read what you copied and pasted about Portland. “The city estimates that it has seen nearly $3 billion in condo towers, trendy shops and office buildings go up within two blocks of the line, in neighborhoods once given up for blight.” And all you can glean from that statement is that Pulido has a tower fetish? How could all those things not be good for Santa Ana?? Ive always been amazed at the outright opposition for making a place better (gentrification).
And Art, A picture is worth a thousand spins. But next time you visit Portland, I would advise not parking in front of the streetcar tracks.
#24 and # 26,
Where in this blog thread does Art P. mention Illegal Immigrants.He gives data on Latinos.Do both of you not know that all Latinos are not Illegal.Do both of you also not know that the vast majority of the 85% Hiapanics in Santa Ana are legal.80% of the 90% student body of SAUSD are U.S. born.Hispanics want investment in Santa Ana’s infrastructure and their neigborhoods as you do.They just don’t want to be displaced in the proccess.#26 why are you so fixated on every post including the Illegal word?Do you have an agenda?Just wondering.
Poster 26,
Again, just look at Portland’s demographics…that town is not Santa Ana, by any stretch.
Now if you want to build streetcars, tell me who is going to ride them? And why? This system doesn’t go anywhere. How many of you work in the area between the train station and civic center plaza?
The truth is that civic center plaza attracts a lot of outsiders, mostly people with business at the courthouse or at city hall. They won’t be riding the choo-choo!
This plan is ridiculous. And why do we want all these towers when traffic is already congested? What we need is improved affordable housing!
Pulido is trying to create a market where there is none, instead of working with what we have. It is his M.O. It doesn’t work – it never has.
A city that cannot afford to fix its roads and water/sewage system should not even be THINKING about blowing millions on a streetcar system that is 100% VANITY!
Poster 24,
Oh well. Adios! BTW, this blog has many writers that don’t agree with me. If you stop reading it then you will miss out on their work.
I don’t tell my writers what to write, and they know better than to tell me what to write!
So hasta luego…
Poster 25,
Few people spend as much time working to make this city better than I do. Running this blog is A LOT of work.
BTW, when will YOU stop voting for Pulido and Company, even though they have utterly failed for over 20 years!?!
O! O! O! Pick me, Pick me!
How about this: get some trolly type street car buses and run them every 20 minutes or so on Friday and Saturday nights and maybe on Sunday to take people from place to place to eat, shop and be entertained. It would attract the tourists that the street car idea is aimed at. The local working class could continue to use public OCTA transportation during normal working hours and the costs would be VERY modest compared to fully investing in a maybe good/maybe bad idea of the street cars. It would be a cheap way to test the idea without tearing up the streets, while adding some charm and attraction to people who want to experience the charming things Santa Ana wants to showcase. How’s that?
I like #31’s idea. The LB passport works exceptionally well, but SA would need more attractions. If it looped around the area near Bowers and the discovery center it might be more of a draw?
Pedroza,
I understand your point about the streetcar being a pet project and I really can’t disagree with you on that, its just the more I read this blog you seem to always trash anything not explicitly benifiting the Latino population of Santa Ana that has not yet assimilated. You make a lot of good points, I hate to see that drowned out at times by negativity and assumptions. You ripped apart The Crosby because you obviously didn’t understand it, just some things to consider.
Lomeli,
Not all Latinos are illegal? Holy crap!!! That’s amazing!!! I didn’t know that!!! No, seriously, focusing on the word “illegal” to start off your argument makes you no better than Barbara Coe. Im not only fixated on posts with the word illegal in them, but keep looking!
This is FUN, guys!
Saint Chris,
“I didn’t know that!!!”.Aparrently not based on your postings.I agree,you are no better than Barbara Coe, as you and #24 translate Latino to illegal.Review your #26 post.On this thread you and #24 are the only ones using the word.
Well Lomeli, I have thouroughly reviewed my post #26, thanks for the homework assignment. Boy, have you led me to the light. It appears I posed to question “Did you forget other people live in Santa Ana besides illegal aliens?” And apparently that means that I equate “Latino” with “illegal”. Please don’t start splitting hairs or attempting to slander me. Pedroza defends illegal immigrants all the time on this blog, thats what I was addressing. Do you read the rest of my posts or do you simply skim them for the word “illegal”? By the way, YOU used the word “illegal” in YOUR post, #33!!! OOOOHHH!!! Who’s laughing now??? Oh yeah, me, because you have no sense of humor.
Saint Chris,
“Slander you”.What a joke.Pedroza was not addressing illegal immigrants on this thread.My post #33 was responding to you OOOOHHHHH!!!!LOL.You ARE a joke. I do find you humorous.
Captain Pissing Contest,
Do YOU have an agenda? I know Pedroza wasn’t addressing illegals, I was. Would you like to make a new point, or are you beating the same dead horse? It seems you are hell bent on making me out to be some immigrant hater, like as if there are no illegal immigrants that ever lived in Santa Ana, ever. Im not a racist and I don’t equate Latino = Illegal, mainly because I am Latino, genius. And id much rather be considered a joke by YOU of all people than be a stuffy little internet policeman spouting hyperbole about people I don’t even know.
Also, Lomeli, people usually put spaces between sentences.Not just between words.Are the ones between the words more deserving?I don’t get it.Are you just a big fan of punctuation?Do you like run-on sentences but can’t commit?Either way I can see how your attention to detail spills over into other areas of your life.You are a tireless soldier.March on in the name of “being right”.
“Predoza defends illegal immigrants on this blog all the time time,thats what I was addressing”.You can address what people say but when someone question you that person is a little internet policeman spouting hyperbole about people you don’t know.This is what you do.Your message is full of conytradictions.You are a funny guy.I agree to stop this pissing contest.
Alright, cool.
OK, fair enough. But Pedroza does write a lot more than I do.
RE: A city that cannot afford to fix its roads and water/sewage system should not even be THINKING about blowing millions on a streetcar system that is 100% VANITY!
What am I doing AGREEING with Art??
Quick! I need a drink!
That strip of public space, downtown, amidst all the government buildings, is a joke!
Cleaning it up of all the unsavory elements, and making it a place families might like to frequent, especially since the Library is there, would make a better statement about the future, at this time, than some trolly line.