We haven’t posted yet today — and that sometimes means that it’s time to set aside politics and talk about something safe — like religion.
Of course, there is a political question at the heart of religion within a democracy (or a constitutional republic, same difference for these purposes). That is: how can we live in a democratic system in which some take literally Biblical threats of collective national punishment?
At various points in the Bible, curses fly like hail in a thunderstorm. Some of those curses are personalized, like those in Deuteronomy 27.
27:1 And Moses with the elders of Israel commanded the people, saying, Keep all the commandments which I command you this day.
I’ll skip over Moses telling them how to build an ark and make offerings and such and get right to the “chosen people of God” part — and setting out the rules. First, he literally divided the twelve tribes into two teams of six, a “blessing” team on one mountain and a “cursing” team on another, following which the priests (tribe of Levi) would set forth the law:
27:12 These shall stand upon mount Gerizim to bless the people, when ye are come over Jordan; Simeon, and Levi, and Judah, and Issachar, and Joseph, and Benjamin:
27:13 And these shall stand upon mount Ebal to curse; Reuben, Gad, and Asher, and Zebulun, Dan, and Naphtali.
27:14 And the Levites shall speak, and say unto all the men of Israel with a loud voice,
27:15 Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image, an abomination unto the LORD, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and putteth it in a secret place. And all the people shall answer and say, Amen.
27:16 Cursed be he that setteth light by his father or his mother. And all the people shall say, Amen.
27:17 Cursed be he that removeth his neighbour’s landmark. And all the people shall say, Amen.
27:18 Cursed be he that maketh the blind to wander out of the way. And all the people shall say, Amen.
27:19 Cursed be he that perverteth the judgment of the stranger, fatherless, and widow. And all the people shall say, Amen.
27:20 Cursed be he that lieth with his father’s wife; because he uncovereth his father’s skirt. And all the people shall say, Amen.
27:21 Cursed be he that lieth with any manner of beast. And all the people shall say, Amen.
27:22 Cursed be he that lieth with his sister, the daughter of his father, or the daughter of his mother. And all the people shall say, Amen.
27:23 Cursed be he that lieth with his mother in law. And all the people shall say, Amen.
This seems basically fair to me. We can quibble about some details — whether molten image makers should be cursed, and near-parental light setters, but from landmark movers through those engaging in bestiality to mother-in-law seducers (or seducees), this seems like a fair set of things to want to prohibit. An individual does something really bad, like misleading the blind, and cursed indeed shall they be. I’ll say Amen to that.
Moses then makes some statements that soundfine, but that end up leading down a pretty dark path. He starts by telling the tribes the benefits they will get from following God’s word:
28:1 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:
28:2 And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God.
28:3 Blessed shalt thou be in the city, and blessed shalt thou be in the field.
28:4 Blessed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy ground, and the fruit of thy cattle, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.
28:5 Blessed shall be thy basket and thy store.
28:6 Blessed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and blessed shalt thou be when thou goest out.
28:7 The LORD shall cause thine enemies that rise up against thee to be smitten before thy face: they shall come out against thee one way, and flee before thee seven ways.
28:8 The LORD shall command the blessing upon thee in thy storehouses, and in all that thou settest thine hand unto; and he shall bless thee in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
28:9 The LORD shall establish thee an holy people unto himself, as he hath sworn unto thee, if thou shalt keep the commandments of the LORD thy God, and walk in his ways.
28:10 And all people of the earth shall see that thou art called by the name of the LORD; and they shall be afraid of thee.
28:11 And the LORD shall make thee plenteous in goods, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy ground, in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers to give thee.
28:12 The LORD shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season, and to bless all the work of thine hand: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, and thou shalt not borrow.
28:13 And the LORD shall make thee the head, and not the tail; and thou shalt be above only, and thou shalt not be beneath; if that thou hearken unto the commandments of the LORD thy God, which I command thee this day, to observe and to do them:
28:14 And thou shalt not go aside from any of the words which I command thee this day, to the right hand, or to the left, to go after other gods to serve them.
Those are some nice thoughts. Most of these are individual blessings: blessed fruit and increased kine; blessed baskets, store, and storehouses; blessed work of thy hand. Some, though, are collective: being a creditor nation, and being set on high beyond all nations, which to me is almost the definition of a mixed blessing.
Then, Moses brings out the hard sell — and that hard sell is not an individual “you will personally go to Hell” kind of sell, but a “you will drag down all of your neighbors with you” sell.
28:15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:
28:16 Cursed shalt thou be in the city, and cursed shalt thou be in the field.
28:17 Cursed shall be thy basket and thy store.
28:18 Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy land, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.
28:19 Cursed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and cursed shalt thou be when thou goest out.
28:20 The LORD shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me.
28:21 The LORD shall make the pestilence cleave unto thee, until he have consumed thee from off the land, whither thou goest to possess it.
28:22 The LORD shall smite thee with a consumption, and with a fever, and with an inflammation, and with an extreme burning, and with the sword, and with blasting, and with mildew; and they shall pursue thee until thou perish.
28:23 And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron.
28:24 The LORD shall make the rain of thy land powder and dust: from heaven shall it come down upon thee, until thou be destroyed.
28:25 The LORD shall cause thee to be smitten before thine enemies: thou shalt go out one way against them, and flee seven ways before them: and shalt be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth.
28:26 And thy carcase shall be meat unto all fowls of the air, and unto the beasts of the earth, and no man shall fray them away.
28:27 The LORD will smite thee with the botch of Egypt, and with the emerods, and with the scab, and with the itch, whereof thou canst not be healed.
28:28 The LORD shall smite thee with madness, and blindness, and astonishment of heart:
28:29 And thou shalt grope at noonday, as the blind gropeth in darkness, and thou shalt not prosper in thy ways: and thou shalt be only oppressed and spoiled evermore, and no man shall save thee.
28:30 Thou shalt betroth a wife, and another man shall lie with her: thou shalt build an house, and thou shalt not dwell therein: thou shalt plant a vineyard, and shalt not gather the grapes thereof.
28:31 Thine ox shall be slain before thine eyes, and thou shalt not eat thereof: thine ass shall be violently taken away from before thy face, and shall not be restored to thee: thy sheep shall be given unto thine enemies, and thou shalt have none to rescue them.
28:32 Thy sons and thy daughters shall be given unto another people, and thine eyes shall look, and fail with longing for them all the day long; and there shall be no might in thine hand.
28:33 The fruit of thy land, and all thy labours, shall a nation which thou knowest not eat up; and thou shalt be only oppressed and crushed alway:
28:34 So that thou shalt be mad for the sight of thine eyes which thou shalt see.
28:35 The LORD shall smite thee in the knees, and in the legs, with a sore botch that cannot be healed, from the sole of thy foot unto the top of thy head.
28:36 The LORD shall bring thee, and thy king which thou shalt set over thee, unto a nation which neither thou nor thy fathers have known; and there shalt thou serve other gods, wood and stone.
28:37 And thou shalt become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword, among all nations whither the LORD shall lead thee.
28:38 Thou shalt carry much seed out into the field, and shalt gather but little in; for the locust shall consume it.
28:39 Thou shalt plant vineyards, and dress them, but shalt neither drink of the wine, nor gather the grapes; for the worms shall eat them.
28:40 Thou shalt have olive trees throughout all thy coasts, but thou shalt not anoint thyself with the oil; for thine olive shall cast his fruit.
28:41 Thou shalt beget sons and daughters, but thou shalt not enjoy them; for they shall go into captivity.
28:42 All thy trees and fruit of thy land shall the locust consume.
28:43 The stranger that is within thee shall get up above thee very high; and thou shalt come down very low.
28:44 He shall lend to thee, and thou shalt not lend to him: he shall be the head, and thou shalt be the tail.
28:45 Moreover all these curses shall come upon thee, and shall pursue thee, and overtake thee, till thou be destroyed; because thou hearkenedst not unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which he commanded thee:
28:46 And they shall be upon thee for a sign and for a wonder, and upon thy seed for ever.
28:47 Because thou servedst not the LORD thy God with joyfulness, and with gladness of heart, for the abundance of all things;
28:48 Therefore shalt thou serve thine enemies which the LORD shall send against thee, in hunger, and in thirst, and in nakedness, and in want of all things: and he shall put a yoke of iron upon thy neck, until he have destroyed thee.
28:49 The LORD shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand;
28:50 A nation of fierce countenance, which shall not regard the person of the old, nor shew favour to the young:
28:51 And he shall eat the fruit of thy cattle, and the fruit of thy land, until thou be destroyed: which also shall not leave thee either corn, wine, or oil, or the increase of thy kine, or flocks of thy sheep, until he have destroyed thee.
28:52 And he shall besiege thee in all thy gates, until thy high and fenced walls come down, wherein thou trustedst, throughout all thy land: and he shall besiege thee in all thy gates throughout all thy land, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.
28:53 And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the LORD thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee:
28:54 So that the man that is tender among you, and very delicate, his eye shall be evil toward his brother, and toward the wife of his bosom, and toward the remnant of his children which he shall leave:
28:55 So that he will not give to any of them of the flesh of his children whom he shall eat: because he hath nothing left him in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee in all thy gates.
28:56 The tender and delicate woman among you, which would not adventure to set the sole of her foot upon the ground for delicateness and tenderness, her eye shall be evil toward the husband of her bosom, and toward her son, and toward her daughter,
28:57 And toward her young one that cometh out from between her feet, and toward her children which she shall bear: for she shall eat them for want of all things secretly in the siege and straitness, wherewith thine enemy shall distress thee in thy gates.
28:58 If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD;
28:59 Then the LORD will make thy plagues wonderful, and the plagues of thy seed, even great plagues, and of long continuance, and sore sicknesses, and of long continuance.
28:60 Moreover he will bring upon thee all the diseases of Egypt, which thou wast afraid of; and they shall cleave unto thee.
28:61 Also every sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law, them will the LORD bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed.
28:62 And ye shall be left few in number, whereas ye were as the stars of heaven for multitude; because thou wouldest not obey the voice of the LORD thy God.
28:63 And it shall come to pass, that as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it.
28:64 And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.
28:65 And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, neither shall the sole of thy foot have rest: but the LORD shall give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and sorrow of mind:
28:66 And thy life shall hang in doubt before thee; and thou shalt fear day and night, and shalt have none assurance of thy life:
28:67 In the morning thou shalt say, Would God it were even! and at even thou shalt say, Would God it were morning! for the fear of thine heart wherewith thou shalt fear, and for the sight of thine eyes which thou shalt see.
28:68 And the LORD shall bring thee into Egypt again with ships, by the way whereof I spake unto thee, Thou shalt see it no more again: and there ye shall be sold unto your enemies for bondmen and bondwomen, and no man shall buy you.
It starts out as individual cursing, what with the mildew and the fever and the hemorrhoids, but by the time it starts raining powder and dust we can see that Moses has swerved into the use of the plural “you.” The whole nation is going to suffer, from invasions and subjugations and “wonderful” plagues — even ones that Moses hasn’t even thought to include in his speech (notes verse 61, deliciously) will come upon you as well! By the end, even though you have been captured and put into slavery, no one will buy you — and that has got to be pretty damn low!
The problem is that now one is not responsible merely for one’s own morality in order to achieve — well, not even salvation, but simple safety! — but one’s actions can destroy the entire nation. And, worse (for those more prone to rage than guilt), other people’s actions can be what drags you down, what brings down divine wrath on your sheep and such.
Are you supposed to be expected to put up with that?
If not, is there any real limit on what you should be able to do to get people to behave?
This comes to mind due to various stories I’ve seen in the news about Sarah Palin and others complaining about the ungodliness of Halloween, and particularly about how the occult — including things like yoga and acupuncture and heavy metal music — puts us in the position of hurtling towards perdition. Perhaps you’ve seen it recently:
We’re somewhat disappointed that political blogging was edged out by Goth Culture for the last spot this year. Wait ’til next year! (P.S. Orange Juice Blog DEFINITELY DOES NOT recommend many things on this list, including Church of Satan, Scientology, Trilateralism, Twilight films, and Necromancy (the last of these by majority vote.)
It’s one thing if we get to make up our own minds about these personal things; it’s quite another if we are supposed to compel others into following every last law of God. Punishment for cheating the stranger? Yes, fine — that’s our collective business as a society. Punishment for watching Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings, or playing Dungeons & Dragons, or — pertinent at this moment — celebrating Halloween? We think that democracy has to allow for such things. And we think that people who aren’t willing to let others allow for such things are incompatible with democracy.
And we’d like to hear our political leaders agree with us on that.
Christians preach – Islam compels.
That’s amazingly ignorant. Try to back that assertion up, if you’re up to it. Work the words “Junipero Serra” into your explanation.
Correction: Which to be inclusive,
Jews argue amongst themselves AND with God – Christians preach – Islam compels – and Father Junipero Serra mistreated Indians
http://library.thinkquest.org/J002201/html/Father%20serra.html
So the Crusades were one big traveling tent revival, in your book?
The History Of Islam
The Khalifs (Khalifahs)
The Early Expansion of Islam
The Dynasties
***(THE CRUSADES) (2 printed pages)***
The Sects of Islam
http://www.answering-islam.org/Nehls/tt1/tt3.html
(19 printed pages total)
Vern, do you have Rashad’s contact info? Let’s bring in a pro on this one.
I think he’s got bigger things to deal with right now than Robert Lauten. For one thing him and Dalati are seriously working at trying to bring peace and democracy to Syria. So Robert can spout off…
Are you saying that you no longer have the power of discernment?
Why can’t you simply read the two pages and form your own opinion?
(Saying ‘I don’t know what to believe’ is perfectly O.K.)
As a hedging agnostic, raised in the Lutheran church (Catholic lite, [twice the casseroles, half the guilt]), I disagree with the postulation of those who cast stones, at those they believe are in contrast with “the law” as given to the tribes are acting in gods behalf.
The New Testament in contrast teaches redemption through faith alone. No longer is it required to live up to the law of the Sadducee’s or the plaintiff whaling of the Pharisee’s, but only a faith in the God of Abraham and his son, Jesus as the path to redemption. The path through Christ being one of forgiveness IF we repent and ask for the forgiveness of Christ AND we make the attempt to be better Christians.
To those who claim to be Christians I have some serious questions and a lot of expectations, that many or most cannot or will not live up to, that doesn’t always make them bad Christians, but it does question how they can claim to be so, and then do things that are so very un Christ like. After all, saying you are a Christian labels you as someone who is trying to be Christ like, that should include both thoughts AND actions.
To make my case here’s just one of the reasons why I believe what I do.
“Judge not lest Ye be judged.” (For those raised with red lettering in their Bibles, this one’s in red!) By my interpretation, that’s a form of usurpation of God’s power, plain and simple. That violates the First Commandment. “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” Clearly (to me at least) Christ was saying it’s not your job to judge, that power belongs exclusively to God the father.
Of course all of this is open to question. The Bible as we know it has been written by humans, fallible as we all are, as well as translated from one language to another many, many times.
Just to illustrate this, from the oldest known text says “Thou shalt not murder” NOT “Kill” there is a vast difference in their meanings. One more before I go, the very beginning of the story of creation, the oldest text speaks of a yom, NOT day as a time reference for separations in the tasks of creation. It’s original meaning was an indeterminate length of time, an epoch, century, day all could be included by the term yom, while today it’s usually associated with a day, such as Yom Kippur (day of atonement) understanding the context in interpreting meaning is very important and sadly not well practiced by many.
Greg,
It’s one of the many reasons I think the secular form of Govt is SO important to our nation. Laws based on basic precepts of Freedom and the individual Rights placed above the collective rights of the society or religious concerns.
Since the limited republic derives it’s power from the individual(s) the power given to it can not be greater than those held individually by it’s constituents. The free exercise of religion, verses codification of those religious beliefs in govt codes.
I know that angers some who live their lives with religious fervor in every aspect. I would not ask for milk or cheese along with my roast beef sandwich, in a kosher deli, nor eat left handed in a halal establishment, nor do I ask for bacon in either. I certainly don’t want a law passed that outlaws bacon sales for others outside of their establishments. Such logic needs to be applied elsewhere too.
Somehow most of us have forgotten that an essential part of our society IS the freedom of others to create their own beliefs, outside our own, some of which may be repugnant to our own beliefs. We must recognize, embrace and be supportive of freedom even when we disagree with how it’s applied on many occasions. I don’t support what some have said publicly, but support their Right to say it. (city council meetings in mind here)
That understanding and respect is unfortunately lacking today in many ways.
Thanks for the comment (and the more so for the thought put into it), Carl.
My concern here — perhaps muddled by my choice of graphic — is that some people see national safety as contingent on individual purity, by their religious code. In other words: that some people dress up as sexy witches for Halloween not only threatens their own eternal soul (they get to have their own beliefs about that — but we still get to teach their children basic science if they go to public schools!), but that it literally threatens the safety of the nation as well, not as a matter of accretion of individual decadence but as a matter of divine wrath. And, of course, this philosophy always seems to reach its crescendo on or about Halloween.
Yes, individual salvation, in the Christian church(es), is generally taken to be a matter of faith (although I understand that there’s lots of dispute there, especially among those of a Universalist bent.) But this isn’t about “individual salvation”; it’s about national fate.
There’s no real analogue to “individual faith” as conceived by Christian views of salvation when it comes to a nation. We pretend that there is, which is one reason why people get so frantic about having “In God We Trust” on our money and “Under God” in our Pledge of Allegiance: these become national “acts of faith” that are somehow supposed to serve some similar purpose as individual acts of faith, thus sparing our nation from the sorts of curses that we see in Deut. 28:15-68.
One problem with this is that it’s absurd, because the analogy doesn’t hold; another is that it’s pretty much blasphemous to suppose that God (if one believes in an intercessionary God, as Moses posed in these chapters) will be mollified by such empty rote gestures; but politically the problem is that now someone else gets to claim that their suppression of what you believe is not simply a matter of policy disagreement, but of urgent national survival itself. How does one even argue with that, within a democratic system?
“Judge not lest Ye be judged.”
Ah, that seems to be the verse of the week here at OC’s Mosh Pit. All Zenger had to say was “Matthew 7:1” and we all nodded our heads sagely. http://www.orangejuiceblog.com/2013/10/anaheim-takes-612000-from-general-fund-for-last-years-fight-against-district-elections/comment-page-1/#comment-468447
It’s a fine line though. Nobody denies, for example, that Matt Cunningham is a whore. But whether he should be JUDGED or CONDEMNED for making the decision to be a whore – having kids, a wife, a mortgage and all – is a call above our pay grade.
Yes, I agree…there are some very profound thought here, Mr. Overmyer. Well done!
On a point of doctrine (of which I understand there are many strains of thought) I would highlight that you contradict yourself in this paragraph;
“The New Testament in contrast teaches redemption through faith alone. No longer is it required to live up to the law of the Sadducee’s or the plaintiff whaling of the Pharisee’s, but only a faith in the God of Abraham and his son, Jesus as the path to redemption. The path through Christ being one of forgiveness IF we repent and ask for the forgiveness of Christ AND we make the attempt to be better Christians.”
First you say that redemption comes through “faith alone.” Then later in the paragraph, you apparently say it comes from repentance + attempting to become better Christians.
I realize there are different thoughts on what goes into “salvation.” I happen to be in the “faith alone in Christ alone” camp. Faith, and nothing more. This is articulated in the beautiful simplicity of John 3:16. Faith, belief…that’s all it takes.
Of course, once coming to faith, we are commanded to put our faith into action, which involves lots of things.
I’m not so sure that redemption comes from either faith alone or not and I am hoping not, at least for me.
Remember that I am coming from a “hedging agnostic” perspective. I have vast failings of faith. I have tons of questions that cannot be answered. I have questions of the validity of the Bible being the actual word of God. I have HUGE issues of faith.
I was tossed out of catechism classes because I asked very pointed questions in front of 60 plus other students that the pastors couldn’t or wouldn’t answer, more than once. At the very same time my mother was ALCW Pres. emeritus for the national organization. I was pretty much raised in parsonages all over the West coast. I had a very good understanding not only of the Bible but of how the church worked too.
I was tossed from the church. The very same church that Luther formed because he dared to ask questions of the establishment. I was soured with the basic structures and organizations of most traditional churches. I have a family history with it that goes back to it’s roots and Luther.
I am the black sheep. I bounced around and learned about other faiths. Eastern, Western, modern and ancient, traditional and let’s just say, different….out of respect to others.
I can’t say I believe in God or not, not deep down, know it to be true. I wouldn’t be surprised by either outcome being true. It sure would be nice to know! When things get tough I do ask for Gods help. I don’t expect it however.
One of the things I hope, is that God will understand why I have such doubts of faith and understand I have tired my best to live in a manner that reflects being more Christ like in my intent, and actions, especially as I’ve grown older and learned. I hope that God will forgive me as I try to forgive others for their trespasses. Actually I hope he’s all lot more merciful! I haven’t always been so.
Just a side note, My mother is also one of the founding members of “Word Alone” so we have some interesting family discussions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WordAlone
anon, I hope that helps to explain a little better.
To me it’s all pretty confusing sometimes, but I’ve made my peace with God, I hope, long ago. As long as I do my best, no cheating, I have hope.
Perhaps I should have also added that I was taught the actions were also a part of that same faith. It wasn’t just knowing, but acting upon it as well…that constituted a true faithfulness. That still doesn’t really sound right but I hope you get the meaning.
Nicely put — and an interesting story.
I imagine Cynthia and her ineffable hubby Richard are very relieved that “Steam Punk” is not on that list of proscribed blasphemies. Here’s Richard, who, yes, does steam punk:
“Dr. Richard Ward, pictured with Professor Forsythe’s Charge Particle Projector that served us so well in the 2nd and 3rd Martian invasion of 1877 and 1878. He’s recently received a telegraph message from the outpost in Saskatchewan. It’s gonna be needed…again.”
Vern, how can you call him the “inneffable hubby?” I find him highly effable. Oh, that’s not what you meant, sorry. Never mind. Yes, thankfully Steampunk is not among the sins that sends us to Hell, like blogging is going to do someday.
Sigh…just didn’t want to admit that I also find him effable…. Carry on.
Okay, lycanthropy I get. I mean those werewolves are just plain up to no good.
But vegetarianism? That’s as harmless as you can get.
That’s what we WANT you to think….
You monkeys better knock this shit off or i swear I’ll throw my poop at you.
I don’t always (often?) agree with Penn Gillette, but I love to listen to him-
I hope YouTube quits throwing interesting stuff at me so I can get some sleep-
It’s late. Slumber off, sir.
I like Penn a whole bunch, probably not a big surprise to anyone. We don’t always agree but it’s always interesting and makes you think a little..
Fun reading:
The dialogs of George Berkeley addressing subjective reality; and, Freud – Civilization and Its Discontents.
The only thing I enjoy more than debating politics is debating “organized religion”. Why? It could be the four years of Y’Shiva training, but it is more about the simple fact that politics is about worldviews that may have an actual fact based component and “organized” and even “disorganized” religion (mythology) is about the Truth (with a capital T).
I may present facts to someone that, once presented may actually get them to reconsider a political position (ie: explaining the loopholes in Prop 13 to a diehard Republican can make then see that the law is bad and needs to be fixed), but when you attack mythology which is 100% based on the faith the individual has in it, there is no way to get them to move from the stone they have chained to their ankle.
For instance, the quoted text in the article comes from a claimed historical moment (passed down in verbal testimony) by a bunch of nomadic people that thought the sun revolved around the earth, and the earth was flat. Heck, down to the south of them they worshiped cats, and to the northwest they were still thinking that the “gods” lived on top of a mountain and seduced young maidens dressed in a bulls clothing.
While I give wide latitude to a persons personal faith (if you think rubbing green mud in your navel brings you closer to your creator, more power to you), the idea that any one person has the inside track on the ultimate truth, and then put together an organization to distribute it, well, call me jaded by life experiences, but that’s more bull-pucky than one person should be forced to reckon with in any lifetime.
You can go out and get a job (be a hunter gatherer, whatever), do something that creates real value, or you can go into the religion gig and be Elmer Gantry (or a reasonable facsimile thereof). Now some of these parasites on society may actually do some good. From helping those in need to giving solace to those who seek it. But for the most part they can only seem to do their work by destroying others (since all this mythology is “my Truth is the ONLY Truth”). The hokum they peddle does more to separate us from one another than it has ever done to bring us together. In the names of their various alternate reality masters a larger percentage of people on this planet have been wiped off than by any other disease (yes, I said “other”).
Morality in society is not generated from the mythology created by a bunch of frightened uneducated nomads wandering around the desert telling each other stories (or frightened people in the winter hinterlands who thought up Asgard, or the jungles who came up with Tamoanchan). But it comes from enlightened self-interest that says a civilized society benefits as a whole when we embrace a personal rule of law that enforces “don’t do it to someone else if you wouldn’t want it done to you.” If you don’t want your partner to sleep with others, then don’t you do it. If you want honest dealings in business, then deal honestly with others. If you don’t want to be murdered, then don’t murder. Then as a society we codify this morality into our shared common laws.
Now I have nothing to “prove” that any mythology, whether it’s today’s popular brands or those of yesteryear, are true, or not, accurate or not or even plausible or not, those that embrace these myths have failed to be able to provide definitive proof as to the accuracy of their mythologies. I, on the other hand, am more than willing to say “live and let live” and respect their decision to believe whatever they choose, as long as they follow one simple rule. It’s called “personal faith” for a reason, keep it personal to yourself and respect my right to not believe it, or to have it taught as fact to my kids, or to be forced to live under the mythologies “rules”.
“but it is more about the simple fact that politics is about worldviews that may have an actual fact based component and “organized” and even “disorganized” religion (mythology) is about the Truth (with a capital T).”
But what happens when religion (articles of faith) becomes the basis for all kinds of political nonsense (which I guess was the point of this post); or, alternatively when non-religious tenets are accepted as are articles of faith?
Because government is overseen by politicians who are rarely intelligent and honest empiricists, all kind of malignant magical thinking turns into policy; and policy itself becomes encrusted and ossified, just like any other religion teetering on the brink.
Oh well, there’s always another bus coming along this line.