.
I have been stunned to watch the audacity of folks like Greg Diamond that actually say that they want the Obama Murdergate scandal to be a major campaign issue this November. Evidently the deaths of 200+ Mexican National and United States Federal Agent Brian Terry as a direct result of Obama administration actions is the left’s idea of “no big deal.” It is and always has been a big deal to me. Eric Holder’s disdain for the topic is comical and harkens back to key member of the Nixon Administration during Watergate.
I have been following with some interest the coverage of the Obama Murdergate scandal and have watched it morph from rather tepid to its current boiling state as more and more information comes out and the obvious extent of the coverup continues to grow. Of course folks like Mr. Diamond will now use another favorite tactic of the left – if caught red handed either completely change the subject or say “oh yeah” and point out how someone else is just as bad or worse. All that matters is that these actions and the subsequent coverup were taken exclusively under the direction of the Obama Administration – at a time when we are soon going to be asked to evaluate the character of this administration through the exercise of democracy.
I was curious to see a huge jump in the use of the term “Murdergate” and was pleasantly surprised to find that this term has been assigned its own hashtag (#) on Twitter that allows users to quickly search and find threads dealing with this scandal. First coined in the June 22, 2011 Juice story “Obama Murdergate Scandal Set to Break” (http://www.orangejuiceblog.com/2011/06/obama-murdergate-scandal-set-to-break/) this term is being widely spread in recognition of the seriousness of this matter that resulted in hundreds of unnecessary deaths as a direct result of Obama Administration actions.
Congratulations on that, Geoff…
It didn’t seem like that felicitous of a neologism to me, but I guess it is what Republicans are looking for around now.
“Felicitous neologism” – you mean “new word suited to the circumstance?” wow, you hit the thesaurus for that one.
I thought that “why use two words when six words would do?” was my line, Geoff.
Thank you for the compliment regarding my audacity, Geoff, I am entirely sincere. Republicans will have only so many eggs to throw against Obama this year and I hope that as many of them as possible will come from your basket.
I’m confident that when intelligent people fill in the blanks in this sentence — “the deaths of _______________ as a direct result of _______ administration actions” — the second blank is not going to be filled in with Obama (well, except perhaps as re Afghanistan, but he’s doing what he can with the war Bush bungled to pursue oil in Iraq.)
So, whoever is doing it, keep promoting these posts on craigslist and sending more people our way. (You may also want to send them to my earlier post on Murdergate that apparently prompted this post: http://www.orangejuiceblog.com/2012/01/is-issa-a-trustworthy-source-re-fast-furious-murdergate-update/.) I am happy to be Geoff’s bete noir on the Murdergate story, and if it leads people to pile more and more eggs into this flimsy basket, I am all the happier. Let the eggs fly where they may!
Like Geoff is our bete noir on Occupy.
Given the results in the 2010 national election, I have enough confidence in voters that “the deaths of one American Border Patrol agent and hundreds of Mexicans as a direct result of Bush administration actions [even though Fast and Furious was exclusively an Obama administration program]” sounds as ridiculous as Nancy Pelosi still blaming the economy of Bush, despite three years and trillions of dollars in wasteful spending by Obama. Diamond can ignore the facts or try to redirect the debate to meaningless and irrelevant topics all he wants, but the American people do not like it when Americans die because of reckless and negligent government programs and policies. Of course, he may be counting on the MSM’s continued media malpractice as they gear up for a year of having their heads so far up Obama’s posterior that it may not matter in 2012.
“American people do not like it when Americans die because of reckless and negligent government programs and policies.”
This is LAUGHABLE in light of recent Republican policies, three words Newbie;
THE IRAQ WAR
So you’re saying that Americans like the Iraq war then? That’s not what I’ve heard from most on the left, but I’ll take your word for it.
Newbie,
I hope you are aware that the DEA agent wasn’t killed by a gun from Operation Fast and Furious, two guns from F&F were only found at the scene.
We do KNOW however, that over 4,000 Americans were killed in Iraq, over 30,000 were wounded and up to a MILLION Iraqi’s have died due to RECKLESS REPUBLICAN POLICIES, this isn’t ancient history and in comparison, I’d say the American people should be a lot less outraged over Obama’s policies.
Wait, Newbie, don’t light that cigarette! you are standing in a Strawman Factory.
God damn it, can’t we have a conservative or two around here who actually argue against what their opponent is actually saying?
I know Vern, actually addressing Diamond’s post with his own words, what was I thinking?
Greg, did you write somewhere that, as Newbie quotes you, “the deaths of one American Border Patrol agent and hundreds of Mexicans as a direct result of Bush administration actions [even though Fast and Furious was exclusively an Obama administration program]”?
I can’t find that anywhere, and I’m tired of looking. Got more important things to do. I think Newbie made that up.
Well, yes I did write that, Vern, but I sent it as part of my report to my Iranian handler, so I don’t see how Newbie could have know about it — unless HE IS PART OF THE IRANIAN PROGRAM TOO!!! {Gasp!}
“the death of _______________ as a direct result of _______ administration actions”
Fill that in with “Osama Bin Laden” and “Obama”.
When somebody like Bush leaves such a huge mess, it takes a long time to clean it all up, and some stains just never come out.
I really don’t hear the Republican Presidential candidates talking about this much. Hey Geoff, could it be that maybe, just maybe, unlike you, they’ve rightly concluded that highlighting this issue get’s them nowhere?
Time will tell. I have definitely been wrong before – I have definitely been right before. Besides, this is the time that the GOP candidates are fixated on each other rather than the legion of specific failings of President Obama,
Well, if you think that all the ins and outs of Wide Receiver and F&F are something the Republican candidate should push front and center during the general, well, I’d say you’re interested in having President Obama re-elected. As Greg said, let the eggs fly.
*Anything Obama……..it cracks us up. He goes to Hawaii…..”Whew, knew it was just a matter of time!”……..Unemployment drops says Obama…….”Whew, knew it was just a matter of time!” Obama brings the troops home…….”Whew, knew it was just a matter of time!” Obama takes out 250 High Profile Terrorists….”Whew, knew it was just a matter of time!”
Well, our response: Herman Cain falls like a rock in the polls and withdraws from the Republican Presidential Race: “Whew, knew it was just a matter of time!” Newt falls to the bottom in New Hamshire: “Whew, knew it was just a matter of time!” Ron Paul runs 2nd in 22 states: “Whew, knew it was just a matter of time!”
Please……
I mean to complain.
Out of the 15 first listing, 7 deal with the worthless national politics.
And 5 deal with the OC and the other 3 are fence sitting recaps.
Whats up with that? I thought this was the Orange Juice blog.
Point taken, Cook. More local stories, boys!
Siskyoa County? Ever heard of it? Stockton? Ever heard of it? San Diego? Ever heard of it. Pensions…..dust, two tier reform…..moving forward. Infrastructure falling apart……taxes rising……….worthless politicians……..hard to identify the bad guys…..more Presidential Republican politics…….on the TV!
Sorry “Cook”…..slow news days abound! Maybe next week! Maybe not!
The question that the voters should be asking themselves is:
Did the Obama Admin. deliberatly funnel thousands of untracked guns across the border in an effort to further their anti-gun agenda?
Black helicopters! Chemtrails! Flouride brainwashing!
I know, it’s not like there are actual emails from ATF folks claiming that the Fast and Furious debacle could be a good argument for Demand Letter 3 –
the requirement for firearms dealers in four southwest states to report multiple long gun sales. You know, stronger gun restrictions. Oh wait …
http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-seattle/speculation-rampant-on-reported-atf-moves-involving-key-fast-furious-players
Wow. Would better reporting on multiple long gun sales in southwestern states really crimp your hunting style, Newbie? Damm gummint.
It was a natural deduction from the local ATF folks. Meaning, to your wild-eyed camp, it was Obama’s secret plan all along, killing Brian Terry to make that happen!
The level of paranoia can truly boggle one’s mind.
From MediaMatters;
Fox Guests Adopt NRA Chief LaPierre’s “Massive Obama Conspiracy” On Guns
“Back in September, National Rifle Association executive vice president Wayne LaPierre drew ridicule after claiming the existence of a “massive Obama conspiracy” to take no action on gun control in his first term, get reelected, and then “erase the Second Amendment from the Bill of Rights.”
What the “Obama not coming after your guns is really evidence of his desire to come after your guns” thesis lacks in accuracy or logic it makes up for in convenience. The NRA’s “massive Obama conspiracy” justifies the need to help them raise contributions and encourage people to buy more guns.”
******************************
Geez, just how blatant does the fear-mongering and manipulation have to be before these right-wingers get wise to it?
skallywag; check brain at door, take ring, insert in nose, see hoop, jump through.
By the way, I have to admit: that is one smokin’ hashtag.
FYI….. Smokin’ hash tag is one of the games at the NORML Annual Picnic.
Obama oted for a federal ban on most military surplus ammo
Voted in 2005 to classify all Full Metal Jacket ammo in the following calibers as armor-piercing – all of these are used for hunting or sports use.
223 Remington
308 Winchester
Soviet 7.62×39
Source: http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=1&vote=00217
Opposes protecting firearms manufacturers from lawsuits due to the misuse of their products by others.
In July, 2005 Obama voted against S. 397 that passed by a wide margin (65-31) and became law in October, 2005. This act prohibits “civil liability actions from being brought or continued against manufacturers, distributors, dealers, or importers of firearms or ammunition for damages, injunctive or other relief resulting from the misuse of their products by others.”
Supports ajudicated unconstitutional local handgun bans
The campaign of Democratic presidential hopeful Barack Obama said that he “believes that we can recognize and respect the rights of law-abiding gun owners and the right of local communities to enact common sense laws to combat violence and save lives. Obama believes the D.C. handgun law is constitutional.”
— http://www.sportsmenforobama.org/content/view/34/ (Citing James Oliphant and Michael J. Higgins, “Court To Hear Gun Case,” Chicago Tribune, 11/20/07).
(See http://www.scotuswiki.com/index.php?title=DC_v._Heller for background on the case of District of Columbia v. Heller, before the Supreme Court, that will decide the constitutionality of a civilian handgun ban in Washington, D.C.)
That my friends is an anti gun agenda. The only reason he does not overtly push for more hand gun legislation is because he knows that would not pass congress.
anonster said: “I hope you are aware that the DEA agent wasn’t killed by a gun from Operation Fast and Furious, two guns from F&F were only found at the scene.”
NPR says: “Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry was killed by a weapon lost in a failed gunwalking operation ..”
Do you believe anonster or NPR?
I think that it was a through and through shot and they don’t know exactly which gun killed him – but if I were the perp I would drop the possibly incriminating weapon.
Also, to say that a gun found at the crime scene was not the weapon that killed Terry is damn idiotic anonster.
From Sen. Grassley’s office;
December 14, 2011
Grassley comments on One-Year Anniversary of Death of Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry
Senator Chuck Grassley today released the following statement on the one-year anniversary of when U.S. Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry was shot. Agent Terry later died from the gunshot. Guns found at the scene of the crime were part of an illegal gunwalking program initiated by the federal government called Fast and Furious.
********************
Guns found at the scene are different from the actual murder weapon. If Grassley and Issa KNEW they were the murder weapons they WOULD certainly say so, as it would only bolster their anti-Obama agenda.
More weak arguments from the left. Since they can’t prove it was one of the walked guns that actually killed Agent Terry, then that’s ok, even though multiple guns found at the scene were definitely walked. You’ve reached a new low on worthless comments, Anonster.
Your previous comment – “I hope you are aware that the DEA agent wasn’t killed by a gun from Operation Fast and Furious, two guns from F&F were only found at the scene.” also is a lie. You’ve been reading too many of the false reports from the ATF. The ballistics report on the bullet that killed Agent Terry was inconclusive because the bullet was too badly fragmented:
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jul/27/nation/la-na-fast-furious-fbi-20110727
Even in your odd liberal world that does not mean that they were not used to kill Agent Terry.
Newbie,
I am not the one using the hashtag “murdergate”, you and your NUTTY brethren are using this flawed operation by DEA agents in Arizona to personally slime Obama and connect him to murder, sorry if the evidence is “inconclusive”. Of course Bush’s same policy gets a pass, thus revealing the true DEPTH of your convictions.
You Obama haters also LOVE TO IGNORE the reason this ill-conceived operation was hatched in the first place, THE NUMBER OF US GUNS IN MEXICO;
From CNN;
“More than 70% of 29,284 firearms submitted to the U.S. Department of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives for tracing by the Mexican government during 2009 and 2010 originated in the United States, according to the report.”
Yeah, guns from F&F were found at the murder scene of agent Brian Terry, but the sad, sorry truth of the matter is if it weren’t those guns there would’ve been some other GUNS FROM THE US used in his murder.
We will all grow old and die before any of you “outraged” citizens would lift a finger to change our lax gun laws, you really could care less about murder in Mexico and if Brian Terry had been a victim of Bush’s policy you would’ve shrugged your shoulders, this begins and ends for you with smearing Obama.
“Guns found at the scene are different from the actual murder weapon.”
It makes no fucking difference if the F&F guns at the scene were not the actual murder weapons. Suppose one of the F&F guns was used to give cover fire to the weapon that did the killing. That F&F gun was be just as “guilty.”
I feel like an idiot (or a democrat) – talking like guns kill people – people kill people.
“Guns found at the scene are different from the actual murder weapon.” You cannot prove that statement.
Ah, but you ARE using a liberal “Guns kill people” argument. Are your hands cold and dead yet?
“People kill people”
Yes, but guns help people kill MUCH more efficiently. If THAT were not true, more mass murderers would choose other weapons, opting to not have to deal with gun ownership screening laws.
But they don’t, do they? At least not these days.
Stop, everybody, stop! You’re making a hashtag out of everything!
*An Eric Holder Conspiracy? Come on now….the next thing you will say is that WACO and Elian Gonzales was a Janet Reno Conspiracy! How about Oklahoma City? The two missing folks that dropped off the van are still missing. Come on now, this is all called “pimping the system”. The ATF has used this model since their inception. They drop a few “illegal automatic weapons” on the street and find out where they go. They track those to some of the bigger drug rings and once in 100….they actually get a conviction and take some slime bags off the streets for a few years. Is it legal? Good grief…doesn’t anyone watch Boardwalk Empire or have seen Serpico? The reality is:
Once exposed….whoever did the deed will have cupability and be removed or should be removed from their Federal Pensions. It seldom happens and we doubt that our good friend Darrell Issa will be able to get to the bottom of the food chain and find out (1) Who took the guns to the various gun shops for distribution? If it was several agents……they need to nail the supervisor. (2) How many current Investigations are a direct result of the distribution and still ongoing? and (3) Could the bad guys (cartel folks) consider a defense of being illegally set up?
Gun Legislation? Nah…..that dog don’t bark! Why Obama will win in 2012 is because of his “laize faire” position on firearms while acting as President. Hillary and Bill were the real anti-gunners….and why the antipathy that wouldn’t go away. Hillary has now stood on her own. We would have never said it before….but she is doing a great job and we are pretty proud of her actually. As long as she continues to get good hair cuts……what can you say?
What I love about the comments is that there is not a single mention of whether this is a scandal and a coverup. Instead we get the typical “others are worse” or “he’s done so much other good.” No personal responsibility.
Well, could you define “scandal?” One man’s scandal is another man’s “this is the way the government has operated for years and now that it’s been brought to light, NOW you have a problem with it?”
As for coverup, nothing’s been proven. So no commentary is necessary. It’s all accusation on your part.
Let’s see.
Screwup? Apparently.
Bad idea many smart people thought was a good idea? Apparently.
Tragedy? For those close to Brian Terry and all those Mexicans, although it’s also pretty close to normal life for them.
Scandal? If you’re successful. I know you want one, I’m not sure it rises to that myself.
Cover-up? Really?
Eric Holder forgot about it or misconstrued a question or expressed himself unclearly or something in a Congressional hearing. That’s what they mean by “cover up.” As for how it stacks up to other cover-ups — or whether it counts as a cover-up at all — that will be lovingly analyzed once all of the GOP eggs are safely in Geoff’s basket. I think that this could be the “William Ayers” of 2012!
Or Rezco! Who can possibly forget Tony Rezco? Why, that scandal sunk Barack like a lead zeppelin.
Wow, I see you’ve mastered the talent of political doublespeak. I don’t necessarily agree to a coverup, but Holder is definitely an inept AG if he failed to read the reports on F & F he got. Add in his department’s lying to Congress and, assuming the Wide Receiver reports are true, their continuing of a failed program that led to the death of at least one American and hundreds of Mexicans.
And I have no doubt the media will turn a deaf ear to this, as they did with Ayers, Reverend Wright, Solyndra, the New Black Panther fiasco, Obama’s illegal and dangerous expansion of executive powers, lavish private White House Halloween parties, and of the litany of foolish moves our President has made. This last part is in honor of the libs on here who constantly deflect rather than address the points of the comments or blog post.
Reverend Wright got a lot of media attention. So has Solyndra.
Wasn’t much to the Ayers story.
The New Black Panther dude with a nightstick in Philadelphia was a joke.
His illegal and dangerous expansion of executive powers, just like Bush and Cheney before him, has been roundly screamed against by all good leftists. You really should check on MSNBC some time. Or almost any leftwing blogs. Yeah, I wish the mainstream media would raise more hell about it. I’m pretty sure MSNBC does more about Obama’s expansion of powers than FOX does.
The Halloween parties? Okay, I admit that flew past my radar. Is this White House supposed to be ascetic?
Wrong “Terry” Vern – Brian not Randall.
Thanks – fixed.
Geoff, just the usage of the term “murdergate” puts you in tin foil hat territory and discredits anyting you have to say. Try using rational means of expression.
And that really borderline-racist picture he keeps using. I don’t know if it’s photo-shopped or not, but it’s obviously supposed to suggest that the President is at heart some kind of black gangstah. And that he enjoys Terry’s death.
How in the world is the use of that picture “racist?” It is not posed, photoshopped or taken out of context.
Then tell us, how exactly does it illuminate your “Obama Murdergate” theory – to the degree that you use it for every article of your series? And don’t be coy.
My “theory” is in every story. To summarize: Obama Administration authorizes “Operation Fast and Furious;” Operation is monitored by various agencies within Obama Administration including the Justice Department; Guns “walked” by Fast and Furious are used as Murder Weapons at scene of hundreds of murders of Mexican nationals and U.S. Agent Brian Terry; Congress discovers action and starts investigation: instead of simply saying “we screwed up,” cancelling mission and admitting fault Obama Administration denies knowledge and tries to describe harm as minimal; Obama Administration caught lying about knowledge – continues to deny; documentary proof of knowledge emerges, Obama Administration calls it “press witch hunt;” no punishment doled out to anyone facilitating fast and furious in fact those involved are generally promoted – those blowing whistle are fired or demoted.
Yeah, and Obama grinning and making a sign to a young black guy that might seem in our white minds to be some kind of gang sign … has what to do with all this?
If that is a gang sign or “gang sign like” I have no idea having honestly never seen a gang sign. To me it simply looked like the President using his finger as a gun and nothing else.
(Pssst — Geoff, it was a gang sign. Meet me in the parking garage and I’ll tell you more.)
It in no way represents that BHO enjoys anyone’s death – it indicates that at times he is thoughtless or ignorant. It is not racist.
Tin Foil Hats are used to describe clinically paranoid or delusional people. I would understand why you would want to characterize me that way on this issue, but I am not paranoid because these things all happened and have been corroborated and I am not delusional because I think that government action that leads to death is bad.
“I think that government action that leads to death is bad.”
Wrong. You think that government action that leads to PARTICULAR deaths is wrong. Others, you have no problem with.
How about like this?
Politically motivated and illegal government action which leads to the deaths of those whose job it is to protect us is wrong.
OK. And what was the “political motivation” for a program like Wide Receiver?
*We are not paranoid either…..but those Black heliocopers continuing to cricle our house and the Predator drones that do occasional flyovers. The guy at the top of the hill with the telescope is not looking for his lost dog and the lady that looks up at our window every time she goes by…never wears her Ron Paul T-Shirt when we see her! The Home Owners Association folks always seem to be watching how fast our ivy is growing as well. But as Woody Allen would say: “Paranoid? Some people call that perceptive!”
anon
Posted January 10, 2012 at 2:21 PM
OK. And what was the “political motivation” for a program like Wide Receiver?
THAT’S THE POINT !!
There was no political motivation for Wide Receiver – as opposed to the anti-gun political motivation of the BHO Administration.
Glad you finally got it anon.
The only thing I “got” is that you see “political motivation” through a strictly nonobjective, paranoid, partisan lens.
Geoffrey, regarding “murdergate”: what are the elements of the crime of “murder”?
My definition of murder would include politically motivated and illegal government action which leads to the death of those whose job it is to protect us.
There are legal elements the a charge of murder, which is why I asked an attorney and not you. (Thanks for confirming, though, that the #murdergate hashtag is understood to apply to the Obama Administration itself rather than to the murderin’ Mexican drug cartels, which I had expected to be Geoff’s first line of defense until you popped up.)
If Geoff wants to brandish the “Murdergate” hashtag proudly, he should have to expect to earn it.
This is so nonsensical I don’t know where to begin. While I was a teenager there was this break in at a Washington DC hotel called the Watergate. Turns out the subsequent coverup of the event went all of the way up to the President. Since then, any scandal involving a Presidential administration coverup gets tagged with “—-gate.” In this case, the coverup involves the MURDER of a federal agent – thus the term Murdergate.
Hey, argue with skallywag. He thinks that you’re accusing the Obama Administration of murder. My guess is that that is the most common interpretation among “fans” of your hashtag. So if you chose a hashtag open to misinterpretation, you have to go explain it to them, not to me.
I’m sure, based on the above explanation, that you’d hate to be getting traffic from people who think that this is about murdering someone via “politically motivated and illegal government action” rather than about errors that may have facilitated a criminal murder. I’m happy to give you the opportunity to clarify.
Geoff,
Watergate originated in the Oval Office, same with most other “gates” involving the Presidency, YOURS originated in Arizona NOT the WhiteHouse.
Murdergate originated in the Oval Office every bit as much as Watergate.
How did the President choose Brian Terry out of so many possible victims? Was Terry also a Republican activist? Had he said something disrespectful of the President, or critical of one of his pet policies?
There is a lot you need to look into here! And quickly, before we accidentally re-elect a MURDERER just because the economy’s recovering!
Show us the email, show us the memo, show us the tape recording…show us something that proves that, or be exposed as a liar.
anon,
Being a crazy right-wing conspiracy theorist means never having to say your sorry (or offer proof), instead you just move on to the next faux-outrage.
Geoff’s “facts” are best summed up by the immortal words of Emily Litella; “never mind”.
“(skallywag) .. thinks that you’re accusing the Obama Administration of murder.”
No, I don’t think that Geoff is necessarily accusing the BHO Admin. of murder. I am just stating my definition of what would constitute murder if those circumstances are proven to be factual
You must be especially incensed over the Iraq war, eh?
Murdergate! – the book:
http://www.beachnet.com/~hoffman/BookAdMurder.html
“Murdergate originated in the Oval Office every bit as much as Watergate.”
Damn straight it did !!
Proof?
“Proof?”
Workin’ on it …
I’m sorely tempted to release a transcript of a tape I’ve just gained possession of, which clearly show Barack Obama, Eric Holder, and a foul-mouthed Rahm Emanuel, just over one year ago heatedly discussing WHICH unfortunate border agent to “off” “in the service of the greater fucking good.” Shall I?
I hope that it is not as long as your unreadable Rudoplh the fucking reindeer.
There’s only one way to really piss Vern off, skally, and now you’ve done it! You slagged his Rudolph!
No,. he has just redefined himself as a swine puzzling before pearls.
skallywag,
Isn’t convention to have the proof BEFORE you pronounce guilt?
Oh, I forgot, you’re a nut and he’s black.
Yes, that is why Anonster always cites to credible sources (sarcasm) to back up all of her crazy left tin foil hat wearing accusations
Pathetic and lame Geoff.
Why not a FACT laden comeback?
Uh, that’s because you’ve been caught talkin’ out of your ass, again.
anonster,
I have not pronounced guilt – show me where you believe that I have.
skallywag,
“Murdergate originated in the Oval Office every bit as much as Watergate.”
“Damn straight it did !!”
That sounds like a pronouncement of guilt.
… or of confusion.
More pathetic race baiting from the left.
Anonster, this is probably wasted effort because you simply mock out of your own ignorance rather than actually engaging, but I will give it the good old college try and explain the obvious.
Watergate started when some one within the President’s circle decided to take irresponsible and illegal activities. The President did not direct and had no awareness of those actions at the time they were directed and took place. The President then learned of those activities when brought to light by the press and Congressional investigation and then took the affirmative action to further the coverup to protect the actions of those within his inner circle.
Murdergate started when someone within the President’s circle decided to take irresponsible actions that led to many, many unnecessary deaths. The President did not direct those actions (as far as we now know) and had no awareness of those actions at the time they were directed and took place (as far as we now know). The President’s Attorney General then learned of those activities when brought to light by the press and Congressional investigation and then took the affirmative action to further the coverup to protect the actions of those within the President’s inner circle.
Do you suppose that you could publish a comparative annotated timeline of the “cover-ups” in both Watergate and “Murdergate”? I realize that I could do it myself, but I’m really interested in seeing how you think that they compare. Eric Holder didn’t remember something or misinterpreted a question. Is that all that happened in Watergate? Do go on!
Oh, now “The Oval Office” has changed to “the President’s circle”. Tell us, Geoff…how big is that circle? What constitutes being “in” it? Does it reach outside the Oval Office? Can one be part of “the President’s circle” and make decisions the President is not aware of?
All you got is guilt by association. But that’s ok, we’re all hoping you continue keeping this issue front and center during the election.
My original statement was “Murdergate originated in the Oval Office every bit as much as Watergate” and that is the argument that I just supported. If you want to reframe the debate that is you perogative, just don’t act like I am the one changing the subject.
YOU’RE the one playing with language. I can’t help it if you don’t like it pointed out.
Hey Geoff, does the conviction for this 2007 murder of 4 Iraqis by this US soldier (you know, during that war launched by George W. Bush) make this a case of “Bush Murdergate”?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7902599.stm
Write a story on your theory if you think so – but don’t distract from Obama’s actions.
It doesn’t distract from your story at all. It merely points out how ridiculous calling it “Obama Murdergate” really is. There’s absolutely no difference between what you’re doing and what I just did.
As for “Obama’s actions” would you like to educate us on what those were? (note that by “Obama”, I mean the actual person, Barack Obama).
Wait — did Watergate originate in the Oval Office? Did Nixon command that particular break-in take place? (I honestly don’t remember, but I had thought not.)
Is this like saying that “Murdergate originated in the Oval Office every bit as much as Geoff Willis has large pink wings?”
I think you’re wrong Geoff (not that you’ll ever admit it), here’s a little excerpt from the Ford Library and Museum;
… Meanwhile, the White House announced that the president had no prior knowledge of the Watergate matter. Yet Dean’s testimony refuted that claim. He told a stunned Senate committee and, through the gathered media, an astonished public, that Nixon not only knew of the break-in, the president had directed in the cover-up. But how could such claims be corroborated?
The answer came on July 16, when Alexander Butterfield, a former White House appointments secretary, quietly and unexpectedly informed the Senate committee that a system of taping conversations and telephone calls was in place within the White House.
http://www.fordlibrarymuseum.gov/museum/exhibits/watergate_files/content.php?section=2&page=a
As to whether Nixon knew about and authorized the break-in, we can only take an educated guess, he formed Creep and the White House “Plumbers”, the trail leads to his doorstep;
Formation of the Plumbers
The plumbers were formed by President Nixon after sensitive military information was leaked during his first term in office. The formation was an almost direct response to the release of the Pentagon papers in the New York Times.The group was headed by John Erlichman. Other members included E. Howard Hunt and CIA liason John Paisley.
Inside Jobs
The first task of the plumbers was to burglarize the office of Daniel Ellsberg, the leaker of the Pentagon Papers. Other plumber operations include Hunt’s investigation into the Teddy Kennedy Chappequiddick affair and Liddy’s investigation into reported Kennedy involvement in the assassination of South Vietnamese President Ngo Dinh Diem.
CRP Involvement
The special investigations unit branched out by doing work for the Committee to Re-elect the President. After the burglary of Ellsberg’s psychiatrist’s office, Liddy was recruited by White House Counsel John Dean to perform intelligence gathering for the CRP. Liddy then involved E. Howard Hunt, who orchestrated the Watergate break-in.
The mission of the plumbers under the CRP was, in a nutshell, to harass Nixon’s opponents. They did this through various measures, such as wiretaps, burglaries and intercepted mail. The Watergate break-in was arranged by the CRP and carried out by the plumbers, under a project called Operation Gemstone. Funding for these “dirty tricks” was obtained by laundering money through Mexico.
http://iml.jou.ufl.edu/projects/Fall06/Weiner/pages/People/plumbers.htm
anonster: “That sounds like a pronouncement of guilt.”
Take it how you want anonster – BHO “set the table” with his ant-gun agenda.
During a meeting between Sarah Brady, her husband Jim and White House Press secretary Jay Carney President Obama dropped in and, according to Sarah Brady, brought up the issue of gun control, “to fill us in that it was very much on his agenda,” she said.
“I just want you to know that we are working on it,” Brady recalled the president telling them. “We have to go through a few processes, but under the radar.”
Among the measures discussed:
How records get into the system and what can be done about firearms retailers.
And that “proves” Operation Fast and Furious was cooked up in the Oval Office?
I hope they pad the walls where you live.
I never said that it was proof or that there is currently any proof – I am stating my opinion.
So, let me get this straight, you’ve stated emphatically that “Damn straight” F&F originated in the Oval Office (in agreement with Geoff), yet you have no proof and their currently is no proof, but in your “opinion” you BELIEVE it to be true.
HA HA HA, walking it back, walking it back!
Dr. Willis…….talks up a storm. Listens little. Dr. Gregg……answers up a storm. Listens little.
What is murder? Taking any life without a good reason. Taking any life with a good reason that is not considered self defense. Taking any life in the commission of any crime or felony. Taking any life for personal gain. Taking any life to profit a RICO or any crime organization. Taking any life…..because you are a three strikes offender and perpetual law breaker. Taking any life for a frivolous purpose such as a “sex game or becoming a member of an organization”. Taking the life of any family member or friend for personal profit….such as: to collect insurance, property or other personal gain.
OK……so what is the penalty for murder? Depends on the state or country doesn’t it? Being the driver in commision of any crime, being a co-conspirator in the commission of any crime…….also yeilds the same penalties. As well they should.
*One last scenario:
Joe Dokes leaves his Colt .45 Auto with his mom before he is deployed to Afghanistan. Several months later mom is in financial trouble due to her prescription drug abuses. She need cash for meds. She sells the Colt to her neighbor’s kid who is 22 and a well known gang member in the community. He immediately robs a liquor store and winds up shooting two cops that are called to the scene.
Joe winds up being charged with poor security of a government firearm and is sentenced to 10 years in prison with dishonorable discharge. Joe’s mom is charged with Accessory to Murder and goes to jail for 10-20 years. The neighbor get’s off for killing the two cops because the bleeding heart judge says he was set up by Joe’s mom because she never liked him.
The system is dirty, dirty, dirty and what should happen with “Fast and Furious” is to simply fire the ATF Supervisor and ask for the resignation of the person above him.
End of story……any comments Geoff Willis or Gregg Diamond?
We hope not!
I’ll go along with the conclusion, but your speculation as to how different people would be sentenced in that situation seems far-fetched. Got examples? Got base rates showing if those examples are unusual?
*Dr. Greg., everything seems far fetched when you are talking about the legal system.
The truth is……firearms and explosive devices are something that have so many rules, laws and inclusions attached to them through the literally 1000’s of Federal, State and Local restrictions…….that it would be a joke to try and figure out without heavy legal representation. One good example is simply this one for California: A guy has collected firearms for 40 years and never even got a parking ticket. One day he comes home and his wife is having a fit about some insignificant home issue. He screams at her and the neighbors call the cops. They arrive and claim it is a “Domestic Dispute”. The wife recants and says it was all a mistake. The cops ask one question: Do you have firearms in the home? They look and promptly take all the guys 40 year collection and put them in the back of a Black Maria unceremoniously.
The guy then is charged with “Domestic Violence” or threatening. and restricted from having firearms until the three year legal battle and thousands of dollars expended….and then they are returned to him…….when and if they feel like it. If you don’t believe us……ask any “off duty cop” you might know.
And don’t forget, that is if there was no physical abuse, no property damage and no forced separation of the two participants.
Where are you getting this? Did this happen to someone you know?
*Dr. Greg…….actually it happened during our Citizen Police Academy in Newport Beach some years back….on a ride along. But this goes on virtually every day of every year in towns and cities throughout CA and several other states.
Any act of violence in your own home and you are guaranteed to lose your right to possess firearms……….forever. That’s the law.
Winships: “.. what should happen with “Fast and Furious” is to simply fire the ATF Supervisor and ask for the resignation of the person above him.”
Holder & BHO? That would do the trick.
Former DEA Chief says 3 other federal agencies knew about Operation Fast and Furious ICE – DEA & FBI.
And Holder didn’t know? Holder is a liar – a fucking damn contemptable liar.
Ho – ho – ho – Holder has to go!
Leaving aside the merits of your claim, as an experienced protester I have to correct you about something:
It should be “Hey-hey! . . Ho-ho! . . Eric Holder’s got to go!”
That’s two beats apiece after the first two exclamations. Scansion matters!
Thanks for that Mr. Diamond.
“Hey-hey! . . Ho-ho! . . Eric Holder’s got to go!!”
I like it.
What’s a scansion?
The Wikipedia discussion of the concept is so fascinating that I could barely tear myself away. I commend it to you.
In summary, scansion is the thing that tells you that “Ho – ho – ho – Holder has to go!” is a bad chant and “Hey-hey! . . Ho-ho! . . Eric Holder’s got to go!” is a good one. It’s the musical aspect of language.
IF I could get Petrucci font to work in the comments, I would write out the idea as musical notes. Both those chants suggest a certain rhythm, but the first one is pretty dull and clunky, while the second one, in the way it’s traditionally done, has a nice swingy syncopation to it.
Hey that reminds me guys, don’t forget to come to my Valentine/Lincoln/:Leap Year concert Sunday afternoon at 4, Huntington Beach Library!
I’m going to be at the CDP convention today and tomorrow! Given my plan to sleep about 3 hours tomorrow night, I’ll probably have to nap before I come home. But may your fans be plentiful.
Looking at it again, if you add one more “ho” you could sing the first one to the opening bars of “A Pirate’s Life for Me.” I’ve heard worse. (In fact, I’ve chanted worse.)
UNLESS you are cheering for Ho Chi Minh.
But if you go carryin’ pictures of Ho Chi Minh
You ain’t going to make it with anyone surnamed Nguyen.