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[poll id=”303″]
With the U.S. Supreme Court’s 5-4 split vote on refusing to “stay” the execution of convicted killer Humberto Garcia, even after president Obama interceded, the state of Texas carried out the execution of this illegal resident who raped and murdered a 16 year old girl in 1994.
Mr. Garcia has lived in the US since he was two years old. His attorney’s had 15 years after his conviction in which to address any legal failure relating to contact with the Mexican Consulate regarding any International Treaty obligations on his behalf. Let’s not overlook the 16 year old girl whom he brutally raped and murdered.
At this point I will not open the door discussing the trial of Casey Anthony in Orlando that just concluded with a not guilty verdict.
While this Texas execution is fresh I am aware of a current effort in the California legislature to abolish our death penalty. (D) Senator Loni Hancock has introduced SB 900. Bill link follows below.
Looking out my rear view mirror I read that Prop 7, approved by voters on November 7, 1978 “provided for the imposition of the death penalty for murder in the first degree if certain special circumstances are proved.”
Reading from SB 490’s Legislative Counsel’s Digest it states “This bill would abolish the death penalty, and provide instead for imprisonment in the state prison for life without the possibility of parole.”
How many of us remember CA Chief Justice Rose Bird? The 25th Chief Justice of the CA Supreme Court, Rose Elizabeth Bird, was appointed by non other than governor Jerry Brown in 1977 . At the time she was the first woman member of the CA Supreme Court. She is most famous for having voted to overturn the death penalty 61 times in all 61 cases being decided. Chief Justice Bird was defeated in the 1986 election due in part to her failure to carry out the wishes of the jury in those cases.
As I read the proposed bill text I must question some of the facts as presented. i.e. Californians have spent more than $4 billion on capital punishment since it was reinstated in 1978, or about $308 million for each of the 13 executions carried out since reinstatement. Without Rose Bird perhaps we might have had a larger number of executions carried out which would have reduced the average cost per execution.
It is reported that for those on death row we spend an additional $90,000 each per year.
With inmates awaiting their executions for upwards of 25 years perhaps we need to accelerate the appeal process. Flipping the coin should we keep them in prison cells for life, rather than carrying out executions in a reasonable timeframe, that cost differential will surely change.
Note: As of Jan 1, 2010 we had 697 prisoners on death row in our state.
SB 490. Reading from “SEC.7. (b) In any case where a defendant or inmate was sentenced to death prior to the date of the enactment of this act, upon voter approval of this act, the sentence of each defendant or inmate shall automatically be converted to life imprisonment without the possibility of parole under the terms and conditions of this act.”
Therefore, should this bill make it to the governors desk and be chartered criminals who have murdered peace officers or firemen, witnesses, prosecutors, judges or former judges, or elected and appointed officials who are killed in performing their duties, will not be subject to execution.
OK readers. It’s your turn. Should we retain or eliminate the death penalty in our state?
http://leginfo.ca.gov/pub/11-12/bill/sen/sb_0451-0500/sb_490_bill_20110628_amended_asm_v95.html
I will now end any hope I might have had for a future in politics – I support right to life and feel like every life is precious – if I feel that way about a fetus, how can I take any position except opposition to the death penalty?
Mr. Willis, I agree wholeheartedly. It’s always struck me that one of the great moral inconsistencies among the pro-lifers is that many of them are also pro-death penalty. I much prefer the Catholic “consistent ethic of life” position.
Geoff. Yes, your response may hurt you should you run for elected office.
Let me provide a few names to see if you have heard them before.
Hans Frank, Wilhelm Frick, Alfred Jodl, Ernest Kalten Brunner, Wilhelm Keitel , Joachim Von Ribbentrop, Alfred Rosenberg, Fritz Sauckel, Arthur Seyssinquart and Julius Streicher.
1947. Death by hanging. Nuremberg Trials
What about the millions of their victims. You do not support the death penalty?
Yeah Geoff, you better get with the Party Purity Program if you want to run for office.
So government mandated murder is OK according to the Pearl Clutching Puritan of Mission Viejo? I thought you “Christians” believed that two wrongs don’t make a right.
When I entered the blogosphere I committed to only writing if I wrote what I really feal. I do believe that life is sacred and have never figured out a way for that belief to be consistent with the death penalty. God is willing to forgive murder, who am I to disagree?
Guy. Its real simple. I support the death penalty. We will simply disagree on this issue.
Yes, I am a christian.
Let me suggest you open a Bible to the Book of Genesis 9 v 6 which addresses God’s covenant with Noah.
“whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made man” Source. NIV
Old Testament, eh? With your talk of being “Christian,” I thought you would at least show us some pro-death penalty saying of Jesus or St. Paul. Oh yeah. There aren’t any.
I’m pleased to see Geoff strives to be consistent with his pro-life view. I submit that should also include an opposition to all but the most necessary wars (definitely excluding Iraq, and the last nine years of Afghanistan) and the need for some kind of universal health care, without which 40,000 Americans are dying each year.
Larry, if you ARE a Christian, you should know that Christ ushered in a “New Covenant”. Simply put, he changed, radically so in some instances, many guidelines, laws and precepts that were handed down in Old Testament (Old Covenant) times. Please note;
“You have heard that it has been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say to you, That you resist not evil: but whoever shall smite you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also.” –Matthew 5:38-39
See that word “but”? Christ took “an eye for an eye” and made it into something new…something radically new.
Thus ends the scripture lesson for the day.
Anon. I purposely did not include the Exodus account of the parting of the Red Sea and God’s punishment of the Egyptians as that is also an Old Testament account.
Anon. In Jesus parable of paying taxes to Caesar he teaches that we are to submit to authority. Matthew 22
Perhaps you might find the text in Romans 28-32 to be useful in this debate.
“Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, insolent, arrogant and boastful. They invent ways of doing evil, they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.”
I would say that those felons convicted of murder on death row surely can relate to the above text
Yeah, well they “deserve death,” do they? They probably deserve scabies as well. This doesn’t say that WE should kill them.
anon. As you question our faith let me respond that not only are we Christians but we are “practicing” Christians and attend church at least twice every week including our service on multiple ministries/leadership.
*yawn*
“Not all who call out ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21)
Nothing on the substance of what anon said, huh?
Vern. Let’s get back on the thread in that I didn’t ask what Muhammad or Buddha has to say on the topic.
Should the CA death penalty be abolished or not?
For several reasons, YES!
Vern. Knowing the history and past comments by our regular audience you might be surprised at the outcome of a Juice poll on this issue.
I already said I expect my side to lose. But who knows. That’s what I said. I’ll be surprised if we don’t.
PS. Maybe I WILL be surprised. At this moment the poll is six to zero for abolition!
Vern. Knowing the Juice regular readership that is what I expected. No surprise for me.
I better hurry up and contact FOX News to get more conservative votes.
RUSH, Sean and Glenn. Where are you when I need you?
Vern. While He is coming back this post is not about Jesus. Anon may not approve of the death penalty which is a position shared by a minority of Americans.
While not current Gallop asked: “Are you in favor of the death penalty for a person convicted of murder.” In 2002 it was 71%, 2003 67%, and in 2004 they report 66% in favor. If the preceeding trend continued it would still be over 50%
I’m always astounded by the inability of some to square certain passages of scripture with grace and forgiveness.
All have sinned. We all “deserve death”. Fortunately, there is grace and forgiveness.
anon. You have not walked in my shoes on the topic of forgiveness.
While Geoff and I agree on protecting the innocent fetus, we are addressing someone who has taken the life of another. And in this case I am not referring to abortion. I get it. You oppose the death penalty. OK. That’s your vote.
“You have not walked in my shoes on the topic of forgiveness.”
True enough. But I CAN render an opinion on what you write, and the positions you take. When it comes to forgiveness and your value for life, it is conditional. When one is pro death penalty, there is no escaping that reality.
anon. All factors considered I will not alter my position on this issue. Let me simply say that you, like anyone else, have every right to challenge my posts.
Let me suggest that if I want to hear a sermon, I’ll attend my own church and listen to my own pastor. A pastor who I dare say is more well versed in Scripture than you. I don’t need the rants of a paranoid geriatric fossil who uses the Bible as a weapon of revenge on others and seeks to turn our nation into a theocracy like the Islamic societies your ilk like to condemn. Oh the horrors of Shai’ra Law or whatever non-Christian religion your ilk is so apt to condemn. But to you, The Pearl Clutcher of Mission Viejo, Jesus or the writers of the Bible could NEVER be wrong. Could they?
So what would a Christian do if they found out that a innocent/wrongly accused person was executed? Oh, I forgot. You fundamentalists “aren’t perfect.” You are just forgiven. Or do those things never happen in your HOA fantasy land?
Vern is right. There is a lot of twisted crap in the Old Testament that you love to quote. Like selling your daughter into slavery. Or eating shellfish. Take your garbage rhetoric to the 700 Club web site or down to Costa Mesa where the TBN charlatans reside.
Guy. Have I offended you? So sorry. Take the express train and simply bypass my posts
“the Pearl Clutching Puritan of Mission Viejo”
Okay, Brother Larry, you’ve gotta admit that’s pretty funny.
From the ACLU just this moment:
Breaking news: Death penalty repeal bill passes committee!
Dear ACLU Supporter,
Yesterday, a bill that would change the death penalty as we know it in California passed the Assembly Public Safety Committee! This is an important first step toward a state-wide initiative to replace the death penalty with life imprisonment without the possibility of parole. The bill now moves closer to the Assembly and Senate floors.
With voter approval, California would save $1 billion over the next five years and taxpayer dollars could go where they are sorely needed: education, crime prevention and investigation of the 46% of murders that go unsolved every year in California.
Take action now: Help repeal the death penalty once and for all by asking your legislators to support SB 490!
https://secure.aclu.org/site/Advocacy?cmd=display&page=UserAction&id=3430&JServSessionIdr004=kg2gexp2l2.app220a
A sentence of life without the possibility of parole is severe punishment that would save California $184 million every year. It keeps dangerous criminals behind bars for the rest of their lives, prevents decades of uncertainty for victims’ families, and eliminates the terrible risk of executing an innocent person. With the taxpayer money we save, we can support criminal justice policies that actually work, like increasing law enforcement and funding effective programs that make a positive difference for all.
The death penalty is broken beyond repair. California must prioritize safety for all, not symbolism for a few. Take action now!
Sincerely,
James Clark
ACLU/SC Death Penalty Repeal Organizer
Vern. Are you saying that we posted this story before the ACLU press release? Hmm.
This is one of my posts that you cannot attribute to FOX News.
The NEWS in the ACLU release is that the bill passed out of committee.
Email comment from south County:
“I see there is one small comment about shortening the appeal process that would help. If a person is guilty of murder execute them within a month after the trial. That would help. ……………. “
Yeah Vern, God’s say on the death penalty – that’s pretty weak evidence.
1. I see there is disagreement on this issue even within the hallowed Republican walls of Shepherd Mullin.
2. Do I need to rattle off all the crazy-ass shit you can find in the Old Testament that I’m SURE even YOU don’t agree with?
Yeah, this is one of the few places where Newbie and I don’t see eye to eye. He’s still a good guy.
*Rose Bird? Come on bro Larry…not Rose Bird! Who else was it? Calderon? Hey,
there were three weren’t there? We can call it the “Charles Manson Initiative”…….
very cool…..you can even use the Nazi Cross for the T.V. ads….whoa!
OK, just say NO! Nancy would say that! So, we will say it.
.
Since Larry is now reveling in the popularity of the death penalty, I think I’ll go ahead and put a poll at the top of this story. Seems like it shoulda been there from the start, given the title. I fully expect death penalty opponents like me and anon to be outnumbered, but we’ll see.
There was a time when slavery would have won in polls too, you know, and also women not being able to vote.
Vern, I’m also a death penalty opponent.
The Pearl Clutcher of Mission Viejo also seems to think that homosexuals are the devil and has used his twisted views of Scripture to deny them legal rights that are afforded to heterosexula married couples. Do I need to bring up your “cry wolf” pro-Prop 8 post, Pearl Clutcher?
These Republicans don’t trust the government to do anything right, and yet they trust it to decide which ones of us to kill.
You make an interesting point. An effective government would indeed be able to execute people with more alacrity.
*Tony boy,
Just don’t rob a liquor store in Alabama or Mississippi…..Georgia for that matter. You won’t be getting that 20 years of Charles Manson Pro-Life Appeals from your Liberal pals – if you just happen to kill the clerk by mistake.
Hide Winships, the KGB is on the march!
BUMPER:
I should add that you could buy a fresh blood form the executed dissidents in any meat market. I believe it was 1 Ruble per 10ml.
Just asking, did anyone objected to execution of Susie Young Kim by the Chief Walters Goons?
No trial?….. just SAPD13 death squad.
BUMPER
Email response from my distribution.
“Larry
For all practical purposes the death penalty has been abolished for years.When was the last execution. How much more expensive is life without parole that life until you are executed. Don’t we continually have judicial reviews with long setbacks and never an execution? We either need to abolish the death penalty or executed everyone on death row in the next couple of weeks. Some of those on death row are very dangerous and have no concern for everyone. We had a neighbor who was nearly beaten to death when he worked on death row in California. He was one of those high price civil servants in a cushy job who discovered how dangerous it really is. He died in the last couple of years.” Mr. X
Let god decide.
Court house are usually multi story buildings. So after a conviction for a crime that has a punishment of death or life in prison. Take the convict to the tenth floor and toss him / her off to the concrete below.
If the convict lives, life in prison.
Cook. An interesting concept,
*Phil Garrido and his wife should be forced to spend three weeks at Harry Lime’s house listening to his tripe!
I can only think if one of my Family or innocent children were hurt or killed by a sicko and I come up with the answer that Yes, I believe in the death penalty and we should not abolish it in California. Texas handles there scumbags real well!
“if one of my Family or innocent children were hurt”…….. Hmmmm
Most stupid peoples’ reasoning starts with a condition [if] flowed by list of emotional crapola.
The bottom line is that we all are sentenced to death and majority of us will know an proximate time when we die.
I know lot of people who are terminally ill and know that within the 5 years they will be gone.
Such knowledge is equivalent to death penalty and none of them is freaking out.
Dieing is natural process so it can’t be a punishment.[Emphases added]
However, these who will sentence someone to death get stultified based on their own fear and failure to recognize a concept of the true spirituality and infinity of it.
Probably most pro death penalty crowd is religious one because it fears its own fear.
Religions people, like Gilbert, are groomed by fear and pain so they believe that they can punish someone by their own emotionality when, in fact, it is the ghoulishness of their own believes which they are expressing.
Most primitives like G. Bush, a reborn Christian, believe in torture fortified death penalty….. sick!
The purpose of a prison is to separate perpetrators from the rest of society so they can’t hurt others, not to inflict pain on them or to kill them.
We all are sentenced to death and pain so make sure that we are using our life wisely and strive for humanity in all steps of our life by promoting:
POWER, MONEY, SPIRITUALITY AND EARTHLY DELIGHTS (SEX, FOOD, DRUGS AND LOVE ).
ONLY IN THE REALM OF MAGIC IS THERE LIFE AND ONLY THROUGH LIFE IS THERE A POSSIBILITY OF HAPPINESS.
“if one of my Family or innocent children were hurt”…….. Hmmmm
Most stupid peoples’ reasoning starts with a condition [if] flowed by list of emotional crapola.
See, that’s why I don’t censor Stan, that’s exactly right. People refrain from thinking until they can get their emotions worked up … whereas it should be exactly the opposite!
Vern. I will stay on the thread and agree that it was the right call to allow Stan to share his strange conservative thoughts with all of us.
“to allow Stan to share his strange conservative thoughts with all of us”…… Hmmmm
I take that as an insult Gilbert, furthermore, there is not a one word conservative in my written thoughts.
You primitiveness Gilbert is out of the realm of magic.
Is “the realm of magic” similar to the “cycle of life”? Or are we talking about two different concepts altogether?
Is “the realm of magic” similar to the “cycle of life”?…… Hmmmm
I am glad you have asked Mr. Fawkes.
It is same concept, separate trips other than bummer.
*Harry Lime is actually….Casey Anthony! Cindy, please control your child!
Does not society have a right of choice?
The right to choose death for an unwanted soul?
“Does not society have a right of choice?”……. Hmmm
Cook please notice that only an individual can choose because a choice is based on reasoning.
The society can’t reason.
That is why socialism will always fail.
NO.
I will stand up for an unwanted soul.
“I will stand up for an unwanted soul.”………. Hmmmm
I am glad you are standing up for yourself.
Stan,
I was using “society” as in We The People, Not as a form of government, (socialism)
But it is interesting that you say “That is why socialism will always fail.”
Based on history, all societies fail, no matter what their form of government was.
Vern,
I thought you were pro-choice / pro-death, I guess I was wrong.
California is a Pro-Choice state, in a Pro-Choice Nation. So what is the problem with the death penalty for the truly evil people? (souls)
Yes, I knew what you meant cook.
“We The People” is bullshit because there is no such thing, never was and never will be.
Human nature is such that as soon as you put together two people one will assume domination over the other and if you put together three people two will gang up against third one and so on.
It is not true that all societies will fail, however, some will evolve.
For example the England is monarchy since ever while France failed as monarchy under a pressure of Communards, became republic and socialized later and is failure society since then.
USA too become unionized and since then it start falling like a lead ball.
The socialism is nothing but a lynch mob which was clearly shown in Third Reich and Soviet Socialism and will never work because of the human design by Annunakis.
Therefore, a social structure can’t reason!
However, King and Dictator can that is why people created one for a survival.
In contrast President and Congress can’t.
I think the death penalty must be reserved for the most heinous of crimes.
If you think the death penalty is not a deterrent, why is it that most sadistic/predatory killers when caught will confess to their crimes if facing the possibility of the death penalty. They CONFESS to their crimes TO RECEIVE LIFE IN PRISON and AVOID THE DEATH PENALTY.
The problem has been the ineffective, inefficient and long-drawn out appeals process.
Since many are arguing for the abolition of the death penalty on COST considerations, then what must happen is we must make the APPEALS Process quick and timely. I say aim for about 1 1/2 – 3 years to expedite appeals.
This will bring Effectiveness and Efficiency to both the Appeals process and the application of justice.
On the religious or moral side, I think we must draw a distinction between Murder vs Killing.
It is NEVER right to MURDER. But it may be Right to KILL, such as in Self-Defense, of both an individual or a nation.
My opinions only and not those of any group
Timing is everything.
At church this morning we heard a sermon covering God and Governemnt as referenced in Romans 13:1-7 which begins:
“Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgement on themselves.”
As “God established government to restrain evil and punish evildoers” we discussed this “power to execute justice on the wrongdoer” which “extends to the power given to the government by God to take life.”
which “extends to the power given to the government by God to take life.”……. Hmmm
This is such a crapola that I reserve my right to let comrade Vern to respond otherwise, I would have to use lot of profanity to do so.
Unfortunately Gilbert, the God gave you temporary power to erase my free will speech, given to me by creator as my unalienable right, however, the DEVIL (LIVED in backboards) is watching you to get you into his furnaces for that.
You will make good “chicken” soup for the entire Hell, Gilbert.
From the exile. While I read the bible I did not write it nor was I a witness when the book of Romans was written.
Please notice Gilbert, that the comment was written by Stanislav Star not From the Exile.
You can take your bible and go to Main and Forth Street to join rest of the lunatic standing on the corner screaming Jesus is my savior.
Maybe, by doing so, you may avoid to become a chicken soup for Satan and his crew.
Stanley. Are you acknowledging that you are actually two different people? Apparently we serve an in-depth spectrum of topics and stories where you can’t decide which name to use. Some might question if you have a split personality disorder also known as schizophrenia
How about when government exercises “eminent domain”? Have you ever “rebelled” against that?
anon. Funny you should connect the bible with eminent domain.
I noticed an example of perhaps the first example in our Sunday School class this morning.
Read Ezekiel 45 v 6 and Ezekiel 47 v 13, 14
If you take the time to read the Fifth Amendment of our Constitution you will discover that the government was granted the powers of eminent domain. Where we differ is in the interpretation.
You should not take my Motel 6 and give it to the Ritz Carlton simply because they MIGHT generate more sales tax. No, that was not my original example. Read the Kelo decision.
Here’s the bottom line, Larry; You are willing to “rebel” against governing authority when doing so fits your political ideology. For you to claim otherwise would simply be intellectually dishonest.
anon. No one who knowns me would ever state that I am not an activist rebelling against governing authority. That personal history has zero to do with my opinion on the death penalty.
And if we can go off track do you support the Navy Seals killing of bin Laden rather than taking him alive?
Additionally, When it comes to interpreting Romans 13, some theologians teach that Paul was addressing believers, and that the “governing authorities” he was referring to were those among them in positions of authority. After all, why would the Romans want Paul beheaded if he was telling his followers to submit to them?
anon. Not being theologians neither you or myself can give an account on this issue. There are several areas where experts disagree in their interpretation of facts and 2,000 year old history.
However I will drop future reference to the Bible at this point so as not to offend the man in exile.
In discussing politics I would not want to be accused of mixing the bogus church and state argument.
I’m also just wondering, how did your very conservative pastor, when preaching on this text, square the “obey authority at all times” message with our great nation’s grounding in and proud tradition of rebellion?
Is he just a Tory? Are you?
“No one who knowns me would ever state that I am not an activist rebelling against governing authority. That personal history has zero to do with my opinion on the death penalty.”
Yes, but you just used a piece of scripture that you claim discourages “rebelling” against governing authority to buttress your support for the death penalty…a death penalty supported by the government. You’re saying, essentially, “the government supports it, don’t rebel against it”. Yet you are perfectly willing to “rebel” against the government on other issues.
Don’t you see the hypocrisy in that? Doesn’t that strike you as a spirituality that is situational?
As for the killing of bin Laden, I see it as the culmination of a “just” war. Now it’s time to get out of the Middle East. Speaking of the death penalty, do you support the assassination of American citizens accused of supporting terrorists?
I’m not sure WHAT Larry’s point is, to keep bringing up scripture as backup for his lame contention that we should never question governmental authority. I can’t figure out if he is either saying that:
1. These CRIMINALS who commit capital crimes have defied scripture by breaking the government’s law and hence deserve to die; or if
2. Anon’s interpretation is right, and Larry’s actually saying since the death penalty is a government policy we would be defying scripture to question it. Does Larry realize that we’re in a democracy, and the only things that are government policy are what the majority of Americans either support or tolerate; and that the majority of American people are not always right and frequently change their minds?
Really, though, I don’t know WHAT Brother Larry is saying. Except that he likes the death penalty, and trusts big government to enforce it fairly.
Vern. Setting aside biblical references how many times do I have to say that I support the notion that if you commit a crime you will do the time or worse yet pay the ultimate price under specific circumstances as established by our nations laws.
We can debate all day long if the govenment enforces the death penalty fairly.
How do you define what is or is not fair? Have you any personal experience in which you or a member of your family were victims connected to those crimes which qualify for life or death sentencing?
Well, thank you for BACKING OFF THAT BIBLICAL QUOTE. I’m glad you agree with me that
1. It’s one of the lamest and most archaic things St Paul ever wrote;
2. It’s extremely un-American and should be a passage we skip over, LET ALONE preach on;
3. It doesn’t prove any of your points in any way.
OK then.
It’s also possible Larry is genuinely feeling the moral conflict inherent in being pro-life, yet pro death penalty. And so this latest scriptural salvo may somehow calm that internal conflict.
anon. Pro life? Like abortion?
I have no conflict with the death penalty for those whose actions led to that sentencing
“Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgement on themselves.”
That’s a lame-ass biblical passage and very un-American. If we believe St Paul here, then our Founding Fathers must be rotting in hell for their rebellion against British authority. And on down through Gandhi and Martin Luther King. I bet you that was one passage Tom Jefferson cut out when he tried to whittle the New Testament down to the parts that made sense to him.
Vern From Wikipedia.
Capital punishment in the United States, in practice, applies only for aggravated murder and more rarely for felony murder.[1] Capital punishment was a penalty at common law, for many felonies, and was enforced in all of the American colonies prior to the Declaration of Independence. Following the American Revolution the Anglo-American common law was maintained in the United States, capital punishment with it.
Vern. I guess the Founding Fathers must have been aware of, and accepting of, capital punishment
Why is it so hard for you to focus on what a person is saying?
I was saying that if we believe the St Paul passage you cited, all great American rebels beginning with the Founding Fathers were acting against God. And I don’t believe that.
I don’t give a damn whether the Founding Fathers believed in capital punishment or not. Actually some did and some didn’t, but it is not my point. My point is the Bible passage you love, and that your pastor preached on, is very Un-American and wrong.
vern. I’m done referring to the Bible on this post. However, before I stop, you and I both know the Old Testament which predates Paul as to God’s hand in the history of Israel where thousands were put to death.
Enough said. You oppose the death penalty and I do not. We can agree to disagree.
“They CONFESS to their crimes TO RECEIVE LIFE IN PRISON and AVOID THE DEATH PENALTY”……. Hmmm
No prisoner wants to avoid Dead penalty!
Timothy McVeigh ask for it and many others did!
Many actually ask for death penalty because the Death-row is somewhat a luxury in the prison.
Francisco Barragan, you are obviously yellow coward who would not gave his life for his believes whether honorable or not because a death is a deterrent to you.
Most criminals who commit heinous crimes will tell you that the God told them to do it!
Not one criminal ever claimed that the Devil told him to kill.
George Bush claimed that the God told him to go to war against Saddam and to murder thousands of innocent woman and children.
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/1007-03.htm
If you think the death penalty is not a deterrent, why is it that most sadistic/predatory killers when caught will confess to their crimes if facing the possibility of the death penalty. They CONFESS to their crimes TO RECEIVE LIFE IN PRISON and AVOID THE DEATH PENALTY.
Francisco, that logic just doesn’t make any sense. The fact that someone who’s done their crimes prefers not to die doesn’t show it’s a deterrent at all. In fact the fact that they did these crimes knowing they were risking the death penalty tends to show it’s not a deterrent.
Vern. While your response is to Paco perhaps you can site one example of someone who was put to death by our government coming back to life. While we might debate this form of capital punishment it surely is a deterrent for that individual.
Funny, Larry. Actually no, that individual already committed a capital crime which was not deterred.
That is, assuming they were correctly convicted, which is not even always the case.
Vern. We did not have DNA technology when this nation was formed How many early settlers were burned at the stake.
Now that’s capital punishment. Read the following:
“….Massachusetts history where such harsh punishment was pronounced. The other case is that of Phillis, another African servant, that was found guilty of murdering her owner. The following is the court record about Maria converted into modern English:
“Chessaleer black servant to Thomas Walker, brick maker, now in jail on suspicion of joining with Maria black servant in burning of Doctor Swan’s and [unnamed] houses in Roxbury in July last The Court on consideration of the case judged it meet to order that he be kept in prison until his master sends him out of the country….
The like judgment and sentence was declared against James Pemberton’s black servant in all respects as against Chessaleer, etc.
Maria, black servant to Joshua Lambe of Roxbury in the County of Suffolk in New England being presented by the Grand Jury was indicted by the name of Maria for not having the fear of God before her eyes and being instigated by the devil at or upon the eleventh of July last in the night and did wittingly, willingly and feloniously set on fire the dwelling house of Thomas Swann of Roxbury by taking a coal from under a still and carried it into another room and laid it on the floor near the door and presently went and crept into a hole at a back door of her master Lambe’s house and set it on fire, also taking a live coal between two chips and carried it into the chamber by which also it was consumed, as by your confession will appear contrary to the peace of our sovereign Lord, the King his crown and dignity the laws of this jurisdiction in that case made and provided title firing of houses.
The prisoner at the bar pleaded and acknowledged herself to be guilty of said fact. And accordingly the next day being again brought to the bar and sentenced of death pronounced against her by the honorable Governor [Simon Bradstreet], yet she should go from the bar to the prison from whence she came and thence to the place of execution and there be burnt.
Thy Lord be merciful to thy soul.”
And… what was the point of you telling us all of that?
Can you say what the point was? I can’t even guess.
Bottom line is you religious nuts that if the death penalty would be “deterrent” the suicide in prison wouldn’t be so high.
There is no punishment more painful and punishing if you can’t live it.
But you religions nutcases are to retarded to understand life and its pleasures, so you can’t understand what the death is either.
The execution is simply a public spectacle to sell hotdogs and snake oil after church — that is all!
Once again the death is part of living, therefore, it can’t be punishment nor “deterrent”.
Are you deterred from living?….. you will die that is for sure!
Originally a death penalty was for purposes of economical elimination of social trouble makers like Jesus if done next dawn.
Millions of peoples killed in concentration cams was done strictly for purpose of economic because there was on food to keep them alive…. not as deterrent.
Now the opposite is true so the death penalty is meaningless and ghoulish and “deterrent” for religious nutcases only and Tea Party followers.
From the exile.
Obviously we must have posted a story of community interest.
Check today’s guest OC Register editorial that saw the Juice post and adds their own thoughts
I send email copies of my posts to multiple Register reporters
I wasted a long time looking for whatever Register guest editorial you’re talking about, can’t find a thing about capital punishment. You gotta learn to provide links, Larry.
Brother Vern. Sorry to be late but we just helped a friend move (into a MV HOA Stanley)..
Go to the local section page 5 of the Register under California Focus guest editorials where you will see Syndicated Columnist Debra Saunders’s article with the sub title that “Inmates more often die naturally or by violence than by execution” to which my response is that if we carried out the executions in a timely manner, after hearing the appeals, some of the violence might have been avoidable.
She addresses the cost per execution since 1978 which based on volume would be reduced if we carried out more executions.
Spending 25 years on death row is outrageous. .
So … this was actually NOT the unheard-of case of the Register giving us any credit, right?
Vern. My point is that I thought addressing the death penalty would be of interest to our readers.
My post was on July 8th while the Register Guest View covered it on July 18th. No big deal .Obviously it did create debate which is the Mission of the blog.
Do pro death penalty people a.k.a. religious nuts believe in the United States Declaration of Independence?
It states:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
If you believe in the above statement you can see that the LIFE is UNALIENABLE RIGHT by CREATOR.
Therefore, you can’t “alien” people of the life.[Emphases added]
If you think that you can “alien” people of their life by imposition of the death penalty than you think that you are above the Creator which is gravely sick believe!
You can clearly see that American religious right is unamerican and we should remove all their religious crapola from the American life like in GOT WE TRUST.
if Gilbert TRUST IN GOD (his Creator) he must respect life as UNALIENABLE RIGHT…… He does not!
So Gilbert and Religious Right are full of crap.
That is one of few issues I disagree with Sarah on.
Obviously she is catering to Religious Right in the following [if] moronic statement:
Palin has declared herself in favor of capital punishment. She has stated: “If the legislature passed a death penalty law, I would sign it. We have a right to know that someone who rapes and murders a child or kills an innocent person in a drive-by shooting will never be able to do that again
Dear Sarah, you can put them behind the bars and they will not do that again.
So I take it that The Pearl Clutching Puritan of Mission Viejo will never experience the joys of “the realm of magic” because he wishes to take life from other people with the endorsement of the heavy hand of government.
Please notice Mr. Fawkes that the government has nothing to do with the issue of “the realm of magic”, however your Creator does!
The statement “their Creator” is not synonymous with God.
So “their Creator” indicates that every person has his own Creator.
Therefore, the Pearl Clutching Puritan of Mission Viejo will experience the joys of “heaven and hell”, I gather it would be rather Hell and “his chicken soul soup” for Satan and his cronies feast.
More pearls of wisdom from the Wizard of Santa Ana, the man behind the curtain who loves HOA CC&R’s
I’ve thought Gilbert and his amen corner of religious right cuckoos have been full of crap for a long time.
If the religious right is not part of “the realm of magic,” what would we call their realm that they and “their Creator” (the religious right nut cases like Gilbert) live in?
Guy. Your contributions to this story about the death penalty support the Juice on this slow news day.
Thanks for increasing our “hits” with your thought provoking commentary.
Are you calling your 19th century crap that you spew endorsing government murder under the guise of Biblical principles “thought-provoking?” How many innocent people have been wrongly executed for crimes they did not commit? You haven’t answered or acknowledged that.
Bet you’d kill your own child even if he/she was wrongly accused of a crime, eh old man? Oh wait, I forgot. That’s “Biblical” too. So you would kill your own child or a baby?
And you say your “pro-life”? Give me a break!
Fawkes, they are part of “the realm of magic,” their creator is the God their “circle of life” is heaven or hell, rapture and second coming, a.k.a. Hotel California – Banda.
BUMPER
Guy. I enjoy magic. Be it watching him at Laker games at the Forum years ago or my visits to the Magic Castle in Hollywood.
Let’s take a field trip to San Quentin where we host a who’s who of convicted murders. Perhaps knowing who they are, and why they are here, might provide a new perspective:
San Quentin up close.
Rodney Alcala: the “Dating Game Killer.” Sentenced to death in 2010.
Alejandro Avila: rapist and murderer of five-year-old Samantha Runnion. Sentenced to death in 2005.[50]
Lawrence Bittaker: serial killer convicted of torturing and murdering five young women. Sentenced to death in 1981.[50]
Vincent Brothers: convicted and sentenced to death in the shooting and stabbing of five members of his family, including three children. Sentenced to death in 2007.[50]
Albert Greenwood Brown: sentenced to death in 1982 for the 1980 murder of 15-year old Susan Louise Jordan.
David Carpenter: the “Trailside Killer.”[3] Sentenced to death in 1984 and 1988.[50]
Dean Carter: serial killer convicted of murdering 4 women. Sentenced to death in 1985.[51]
Douglas Clark: the “Sunset Strip” killer. Convicted with Carol Bundy of multiple murders in Los Angeles. Sentenced to death in 1983.
Kevin Cooper: convicted for the hatchet and knife massacre of the Ryen family. Sentenced to death in 1985.[50]
Tiequon Aundray Cox: sentenced to death in 1986 for the 1984 murders of four relatives of the former defensive back NFL player Kermit Alexander.[52] He was involved in an escape attempt in 2000.[53]
Richard Allen Davis: convicted of kidnapping and murdering Polly Klaas.[3] Sentenced to death in 1996.[50]
Skylar Deleon: convicted of the murder of Thomas and Jackie Hawks. Sentenced to death in 2009.
Scott Erskine: convicted of killing Jonathan Sellers, 10, and Charlie Keever, 13. Sentenced to death in 2004.[50]
Richard Farley: convicted of killing seven of his co-workers and nearly killing another, a female co-worker whom he stalked after she rejected him. Sentenced to death in 1992.[50]
Eric Houston: convicted and sentenced to death for a shooting spree that left three students and a teacher dead. The subject of the made-for-television movie Detention: The Siege at Johnson High.
Ryan Hoyt: associate of Jesse James Hollywood, convicted of the murder of Nicholas Markowitz. Sentenced to death in 2003.[50]
Randy Kraft: serial killer who was convicted of 16 murders and suspected of 51 others. Sentenced to death in 1989.[50]
Jarvis Jay Masters: convicted and sentenced to death for participating in the murder of Corrections Officer Hal Burchfield. Sentenced to death in 1990.[50]
Michael Morales: convicted for the brutal murder of Terri Winchell. Sentenced to death in 1983.[50]
Charles Ng: serial killer who tortured and murdered 11 people. Sentenced to death in 1999.[50]
Raymond Lee Oyler: convicted of setting the Esperanza Fire that claimed the lives of five firemen. Sentenced to death in 2009.[54]
Scott Peterson: convicted of murdering his pregnant wife, Laci and their unborn child, Conner, in a much-publicized trial. Sentenced to death in 2005.[50]
David Allen Raley: convicted of the murder of Jeanine Grinsell in 1985, he is the next in line to be executed once lethal injection executions resume.
Richard Ramirez: serial killer known as “The Night Stalker”;[3] convicted of killing 13 people. Sentenced to death in 1989.[55]
Ramon Salcido: convicted in 1989 of seven murders, including six relatives and his boss. Sentenced to death in 1990.[citation needed]
Mitchell Sims: convicted May 20, 1987, of the hotel-room murder of Domino’s Pizza deliveryman John Harrington in Glendale; also sentenced to death in South Carolina for the murders of two Domino’s employees in that state. Sentenced to death in California on September 11, 1987.[50]
Morris Solomon, Jr.: serial killer convicted of murdering six prostitutes in Sacramento. Sentenced to death in 1992.[50]
Cary Stayner: convicted murderer who killed four women in Yosemite. Sentenced to death in 2002.[50]
William Suff: serial killer convicted of murdering 12 prostitutes in Riverside County. Sentenced to death in 1995.[50]
Chester Turner: serial killer convicted of murdering 10 women in Los Angeles between 1987 and 1998.[50]
Marcus Wesson: convicted of killing nine of his family members. Sentenced to death in 2005.[50]
David Westerfield: convicted of kidnapping and killing seven-year-old Danielle Van Dam. Sentenced to death in 2003.[50]
Brandon Wilson: convicted in the 1998 slashing death of nine-year-old Matthew Cecchi. Sentenced to death in 1999.[50]
Yes Stanley. The second paragraph of the Declaration of Independence does provide for our safety as you state. However, reading further, perhaps you should add the text regarding our safety and happiness from the same paragraph.
As you look at your 200 year old documents consider the VI Amendment to the Constitution where it reads: “in all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial…” what it fails to address is how long someone on death row can Appeal his sentence.
Perhaps we should remove all law enforcement and resort to Anarchy as found in other parts of the world.
Death is part of life.
So what is the problem? Then it is only natural to end the criminals life with death.
I still say “let god decide” take the convicted to death criminal to the tenth floor of the court house and toss him or her to the concrete below, the ten story appeal process.
Yeah, you already made Larry laugh once with that crack.
How does the ten-story appeals process work when the convict, as quite often happens, turns out to be innocent?
Vern. Charles Manson is innocent. Edward Allaway, the mass murderer at CA State Fullerton in 1976, was sent to a mental hospital to avoid his sentence. I’m sure Vern that you can provide a list of all those on death row who are innocent. Perhaps they may be released as part of the Supreme Court mandate that 30,000 to 40,000 felons need to be released due to our poor living arrangements.
More likely, and appropriately, we’ll give 30,000 to 40,000 non-violent drug offenders the “early kick” as we used to call it.
But if you’re gonna be a smart aleck about innocence on death row, maybe you should check out “Project Innocence.” Happened so much in Illinois, they just had to get rid of it. Under a REPUBLICAN governor.
And that asshole Rick Perry in Texas (who I think may end up to be you guys’ nominee) just KNOWINGLY executed someone who was very likely innocent.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/
You deserve for someone close to you to be unjustly accused of something, for a while at least.
Vern. While its a stretch an activist and former mayor in Mission Viejo said if elected I would euthanize all the animals in our shelter which probably cost me that election
Project Innocence is a great organization
“You deserve for someone close to you to be unjustly accused of something, for a while at least.”
Actually, I’ll go one step further. The Pearl Clutcher deserves to be unjustly accused of something and we’ll see how fast he will cry “wee wee wee” to those that he sneers at who fight to spring innocent people from the clutches of jail and possible government mandated death.
Vern. As you love FOX News and its credibility I thought you would like the following data:
Since 1973, 121 people have been released from death row in the United States after being exonerated. This bill would still allow death row inmates their federal appeals, but only based on newly-discovered evidence, like DNA, that shows actual innocence.
The Bill referenced above was by Dan Lungren to cap the time spent on death row.
Reiterating cook, you must ware the helmet on your tricycle to avoid multiple brain injury.
So you want to go back to future?…. Huh?.
Your concept is not God decision it is human one.
In dark ages it was done by suspending accused from the bridge in enclosed basket, into a the river for 5 minutes. Then basket was puled up and if you were life you were found guilty and if you were dead you were found innocent.
It was called trial by the water.
Don’t you believe that there is some bias in that trial?…. Huh?
However, you have right to keep making a fool of yourself.
I should add cook that Dr. Ed Josef Rudolf Mengele had similar idea as you do.
He would assemble Auschwitz inmates on weekly bases and wold let them run 100m and if you did not make it at 20 sec. you would go to gas chamber as disabled prisoner who is putting burden on the socialistic medical system. (Obama care)
http://www.auschwitz.dk/mengele.htm
We have overwhelming proof that living murderers harm and murder again, in prison, after improper release and, as we so recently experienced, after escape. No one disputes that living murderers are infinitely more likely to harm and murder again than are executed murderers. And, there is no proof of an innocent executed within the US since 1900. INNOCENCE ISSUES — THE DEATH PENALTY by Dudley Sharp
“Indeed, the decision that capital punishment may be the appropriate sanction in extreme cases is an expression of the community’s belief that certain crimes are themselves so grievous an affront to humanity that the only adequate response may be the penalty of death.” — Supreme Court of the United States
Vern, “How does the ten-story appeals process work when the convict, as quite often happens, turns out to be innocent?”
I will need to see your proof of a convict who has been put to death and then found to be innocent.
Stan, how is mass murder by criminal Nazi’s evident for abolishing the death penalty?
Learn, Cook.
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/executed-possibly-innocent
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/executed-possibly-innocent#also
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Ryan#Capital_punishment
http://www.innocenceproject.org/news/Fact-Sheets.php
Your “tenth-floor” shit is really not funny to me.
“Stan, how is mass murder by criminal Nazi’s evident for abolishing the death penalty?”…….. Hmmm
Very stupid statement.
Nazi were legitimate state with judiciary and every inmate was processed as in USA.
Every execution was approved by a judge go see archives.
You do not know what you talking about cook.
Your argument pro death penalty is stupid.
You are just repeating talking points of the pro-death penalty moron mongoloids.
You rely look primitive to me.
Interesting read, none had shown PROOF of executed convicts being innocent and one example had an updated note showing the executed convict was in fact guilty.
Larry Griffin Missouri Conviction: 1981, Executed: 1995
A year-long investigation by the NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund has uncovered evidence that Larry Griffin may have been innocent of the crime for which he was executed, UPDATE: On July 12, 2007 the St. Louis Circuit Attorney concluded that Larry Griffin was guilty after an extensive review.
(Just in on the Al Jazeera wire, after much deliberations a group of Arab leaders declared “The Holocaust” a myth.) (even I don’t believe everything I read)
Vern, there is no way for me to investigate any of the information in web sites, etc. So you got to have faith in the system used. I understand your concern about “even one innocent being put to death”
The arguments in support of the ballot measure to abolish the death penalty are exaggerated at best and, in most cases, misleading and erroneous. The Act would only make our prisons less safe for both other prisoners and prison officials, significantly increase the costs to taxpayers due to life-time medical costs, the increased security required to coerce former death-row inmates to work, etc. The amount “saved” in order to help fund law enforcement is negligible and only for a short period of time. Bottom line, the “SAFE” Act is an attempt by those who are responsible for the high costs and lack of executions to now persuade voters to abandon it on those ground. Obviously, these arguments would disappear if the death penalty was carried forth in accordance with the law. Get the facts at and supporting evidence at http://cadeathpenalty.webs.com.