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Having five teenage kids myself I know exactly what it looks like when a scolded child throws a tantrum when they don’t get away with trying to pull a fast one. For the past three weeks, ELECTED Wisconsin Democrat Senators fled the state hiding out in hotels eating room service rather than allow the democratic process to move forward. Their ploy was to prevent there from being enough senators present so that a vote could be taken on important legislation. These Lilly livered cowards weren’t willing to have any vote taken, instead opting to take their ball and go home.
Flash forward three weeks. Republican members of the Senate, facing a complete shut down of a functioning Wisconsin Legislature, figured out a way to start moving legislation forward in the absence of the wayward game-playing state Democrats. These Republican legislators removed the financial aspect of the budget reform bill. The legislators removed the provisions of the proposed bill that would have increased public union member costs for health and pension benefits leaving only the provisions that provided mild restrictions on public union collective bargaining rights. By doing so, the legislature was able to lower the quorum requirement allowing democracy to move forward.
The howls of foul and protest coming from the unions and the wayward Democrats can be heard ’round the world. After subverting the democratic process for weeks, the Democrats whimper that the Republicans have violated the “spirit” of the law by taking this action. Unions have literally stormed the capital building with such anger, hatred and violence that police had to be called in to quell the near riot.
I think it is downright funny that the unions and the Democrats have the temerity to point out procedural violations when they have chosen a strategy to fully subvert the entire democratic process. I think it is minimizing things to just say the Democrats have yielded the high ground with their juvenile tactics. I think the biggest threat to the Democrats at this point is if these wails of protest last for any extended time or if they turn violent. The Democrats strategy has simply failed, time to lick their wounds and slink back into their darkened den.
Death Threat and Trespassers
A frighteningly matter of fact death threat was sent to all of Wisconsin’s Republican Senators today:
Please put your things in order because you will be killed and your familes
will also be killed due to your actions in the last 8 weeks. Please explain
to them that this is because if we get rid of you and your families then it
will save the rights of 300,000 people and also be able to close the deficit
that you have created. I hope you have a good time in hell. Read below for
more information on possible scenarios in which you will die.WE want to make this perfectly clear. Because of your actions today and in
the past couple of weeks I and the group of people that are working with me
have decided that we’ve had enough. We feel that you and the people that
support the dictator have to die. We have tried many other ways of dealing
with your corruption but you have taken things too far and we will not stand
for it any longer. So, this is how it’s going to happen: I as well as many
others know where you and your family live, it’s a matter of public records.
We have all planned to assult you by arriving at your house and putting a
nice little bullet in your head. However, we decided that we wouldn’t leave
it there. We also have decided that this may not be enough to send the
message to you since you are so “high” on Koch and have decided that you are
now going to single handedly make this a dictatorship instead of a
demorcratic process. So we have also built several bombs that we have placed
in various locations around the areas in which we know that you frequent.
This includes, your house, your car, the state capitol, and well I won’t
tell you all of them because that’s just no fun. Since we know that you are
not smart enough to figure out why this is happening to you we have decided
to make it perfectly clear to you. If you and your goonies feel that it’s
necessary to strip the rights of 300,000 people and ruin their lives, making
them unable to feed, clothe, and provide the necessities to their families
and themselves then We Will “get rid of” (in which I mean kill) you. Please
understand that this does not include the heroic Rep. Senator that risked
everything to go aganist what you and your goonies wanted him to do. We feel
that it’s worth our lives to do this, because we would be saving the lives
of 300,000 people. Please make your peace with God as soon as possible and
say goodbye to your loved ones we will not wait any longer. YOU WILL DIE!!!!
An investigation is currently underway to determine the source of the threat.
Ignoring a court order hundreds of protesters illegally trespassed inside the Capitol building after it was to close at 6:00 p.m. forcing police to remove those illegally refusing to leave. To create “memorable images,” the protestors enlisted the help of several handicapped individuals to make sure that one person in a wheel chair was filmed being removed by police. Earlier in the day, the protesters had swarmed around the Capitol with such ferocity that they prevent the lawful entrance of the elected lawmakers and forced police to struggle to maintain the peace.
This important landmark legislation has now passed both houses in Wisconsin and at least one Democrat from the Wisconsin Senate has announced his return to the state. Once the Democrats return from their out of state haunts, new legislation can be introduced and passed into law requiring the benefit reductions that were a apart of the original package in place before Democrats fled the state in panic.
Governor Signs Bill – Recall Process Started for 16 Wisconsin Senators
Wisconsin Governor Walker signed into law today the bill passed yesterday that would curtail some collective barganing rights of public employee unions. According to non-partisan polls the bill is supported by a majority of Americans and a majority of Wisconsin voters.
In addition, CNN reported today that all 16 Wisonsin State Senators eligible for recall (8 Democrats and 8 Republicans) have been “qualified” for a recall election. If the signatures on the recall petitions are verified and authenticated, then a special election for the recall will take place in six weeks. Only two lawmakers have ever been recalled in the history of Wisconsin.
The recall effort is garnering national attention:
“A lot of effort is going to be expended by both sides. You’ll see national money. It’s going to generate a lot of passion on both sides,” said Mark Jefferson, executive director of the state GOP. “We’re having a serious debate in this state about some very serious issues.”
In the end, the success of this year’s recall campaigns – and possibly a second round next year – will hinge on the depth and breadth of grass-roots anger and frustration in Wisconsin, feelings that polls suggest now run at feverish levels:
“You can’t pull off a recall unless there is legitimate and real unrest,” said state Democratic chair Mike Tate. “The barrier is too high. You can’t manufacture it.”
Who, exactly, pulled a fast one? The governor, who hid his true agenda while campaigning? Or the Democrats, who did what they had to do to protect the working stiffs? All they requested was a good faith discussion, and some resonable compromise. That doesn’t work, as we know, with the no taxes at all, pro corporate interests at any cost, sycophants who have thier noses extended firmly up Norquist’s posterior.
I think complete abdication of all responsibility and bringing the entire democratic process to a standstill by leaving the state is pulling a fast one. The normal way to have “good faith discussion and resonable compromise” is to do it on the floor of the legislature and not try and do it by holding the democratic process hostage. It is an outright lie to say that Governor Walker “hid his true agenda while campaigning.” This has nothing to do with protecting the rights of the “working stiffs” only taking away the rights of the union bosses.
I will assume that you have no problem with the Republican Senators who use the ‘secret fillibuster” to stall Democratic legislation, and to interfere with Obama’s apointees.
That said, this is a red herring–the senators in Wisconsin did what they had to do. There was to be no good faith discussion–Walker cut taxes, and then went after public workers. Now some folks here are using childish little playground metaphors for what is a very serious turn of events, and has far reaching consequences.
So, hooray for them.
So using legitimate procedural rules (the same ones Democrates have used as well) to stop legislation is wrong, but using illegitimate means like fleeing the state to prevent a quorom is right. I love the logic of the left.
So you, Newbie (and maybe Geoff agrees and no doubt Emperor Walker) have decided that
1. absenting yourself to deny a quorum is illegitimate, but
2. radically changing a piece of legislation and then rushing a vote on it with no notice is legitimate.
I would ask to see your little handbook on these matters, but I suspect it goes through many editions over the years and months.
Abdication of responsibility? Don’t make me laugh. You Republicans have been pulling this crap on a federal level for two years–ever since President Obama took the oath of office. The Republicans in the Senate have filibustered every bill that’s come through.
Don’t sit there and squawk about “abdication of responsibility”. You look foolish.
He absolutely ‘hid his true agenda while campaigning.’ He argued countless time that stripping collective bargaining was a budget issue, then turns around and has it declared a non-fiscal issue to get that part of the bill passed. His second in command Scott Fitzgerald came out and said the point of eliminating collective bargaining was to weaken unions and Obama’s chance at re-election. If that was the case, he shouldn’t have lied about it being a budget issue.
It looks like I may have lost my post over on Vern’s inaccurate post about this topic, but Rapscalion, you are wrong. Walker campaigned last year on reducing public employee benefits: “Walker, a Republican, said Monday if elected next year he would cut wages and benefits for workers so the state could afford tax cuts.”
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/68991847.html
Try to do some research before making such false statements in the future.
By the way, Walker and the Republicans are under no obligation to compromise with the Democrats as they won the election (I’d love to hear your thoughts on Obamacare or any of the other laws the Democrats passed without a single Republican vote – and definitely no compromise). Oh, and you must have missed those emails where Walker was willing to compromise on things like limiting pay increases to inflation. But he wouldn’t compromise on union dues, which is all the unions and Democrats really care about since it provided unions with Democrats in their pockets and Democrats with fat campaign funds.
Again, Newbie, are you just not listening to what anyone’s saying, and why are you mixing grapes and hand grenades?
EVERYONE KNOWS Walker talked about reducing wages and benefits when campaigning. What he NEVER TALKED ABOUT was decimating collective bargaining rights. Most people have been making that distinction for many weeks. I hope I don’t have to repeat this again.
As a followup, I note this comment: “These Republican legislators removed the financial aspect of the budget reform bill.” So, their true agenda is now out in the open–and it ahs nothing to do with balancing a budget. Right, GW?
Nope, it was just the one part of the bill that could be passed in the face of the total abdication of responsibility by the elected Democrats.
Co-incidentally the part that the Dems were most opposed to, which was keeping them out of the state.
And Walker insisted at LENGTH that stripping these rights from workers was budget-related. That was his fig leaf, which he has now dropped in his zeal to please the Koch Brothers.
You hit the nail on the head, Vern. What are you doing in a place like this? Facts and logic are clearly not welcome here.
This is MY place Mags, I just like to share it with all these crazy righties, they keep my blood boiling.
I like your comments so far! Are you and Marc in Wisconsin, friends of Tappa?
MY post on this is over here: http://www.orangejuiceblog.com/2011/03/its-war-now-help-recall-the-union-busting-wisconsin-senators/
It could use some comments.
Oh, sorry, Vern! Don’t let them get to you too much. They’ve got the warm, protective, womblike hugbox of Fox News to return to and it doesn’t make THEIR blood boil as much as it will yours. And they’re not worth it. This is always the distinct dilemna of the person who knows and speaks the truth: having to deal with the astonishment and disgust you feel toward those who brazenly lie or remain willfully ignorant.
And sadly, no, I’m not from Wisconsin or I’d be out there protesting non-stop (and enjoying some Ian’s Pizza, by the sound of it!). I’m in another conservative paradise (ie, regressive post-apocalyptic hellhole)
I’m not from Wisconsin either–but I do have the privilege of being from a state where none of this crap could ever happen unless there was a massive shift in power.
It’s amazing seeing the level of cognitive dissonance some people are willing to take on in order to preserve their fragile, deluded worldview, isn’t it? They’ve drunk so deeply from the Fox/Rush/Beck Kool-Aid that they’ve become almost dependent.
Funny thing is that I listen and watch CNN more than Fox. If you take everything that CNN dishes out unfiltered then you are clearly the deluded one.
Mags,
When you say another conservative hellhole, you wouldn’t happen to be a Yooper (The U.P. (Upper Peninsula) of Michigan)? Or are you in Michele Bachmann’s and Pro-Life Minnesota’s paradise: Anoka County, MN? With the Ian’s Pizza reference, I’m guessing you are in the Upper Midwest somewhere and those two areas pretty much describe conservative hellholes.
Please tell me you aren’t a F.I.B.
I think we lost Mags. I guess she kind of scared herself, she turned and run. “I thought our little wild time had just begun…”
Well Mr. Willis:
We meet again, considering you don’t have to worry as the 150,000 common folks that are still in Madison today have to, it’s a pleasure to chat with you again. Poor people protesting that they’ve had their rights taken away. Let me explain something to you. Lawyers are the only ones that obtain a license to steal. I’m not quite sure of your profession sir, but I know that you are not common folk, the ones that live paycheck to paycheck. The people that are, are now finally saying “enough is enough” and they are going to take back their country. YOU see, for years now, the Corporations have tried to take away the power of the Unions, the reason is clear and simple, politics. Corporations have won the power to be able to put billions into campaigns to get their puppets elected. Now if they take out the unions, the Democrats that fight for the “people”, that live from the bottom up, you know minimum wage to whatever the Corporate Greed people feel like tossing out as a wage, will have no one to help elect anyone who will fight for change.
Obama Care, you say: that was so watered down to try to get the Republicans on board, it was disheartening. To think they would turn their backs on Corporations that thrive on sickness, and poor health of the people they don’t give a damn about is as hilarious as hell. However, the funniest thing of all is the one person in the world that is our UNION, is still going to be there. So wallow in Corporate Greed, argue with “we the town fools” but as I said before, “we are many more than you”, so the death threats, were not signed because they never came from the low life’s you think we are. They came from the people that planted the bullets outside the Capital, paid for by Koch, and or company. However, we will march on, this time, WE THE PEOPLE ARE PISSED OFF, because we are always PISSED ON. If we lose, all the big money people that think they have won, can tell us our President has failed us, and our Wisconsin 14, has failed us. But look at Michigan and what they just passed, what a laugh, read it well, the governor can declare an economic emergency and then appoint an administrator and that administrator can be any person even a corporate person. The Republicans voted to increase taxes on the poor and the elderly so they could take away anything they own.
Well, no sense to babble any longer, YOU don’t like what’s being said, but please feel free to read about it yourself and make your own conclusions. When it all comes down, in the end, GOD is the real UNION, all the money in the world can’t buy health or happiness. Something tells me, most of the 150,000 in Wisconsin and the rest of the people who are being denied their rights, may be rewarded in the end. I know I have my health and happiness, do YOU? And if you do, I’m thrilled for you.
God forbid, anything should happen to anyone that tries to take away the rights of others, because even the Koch Brothers could spend all they have if a disaster should strike either one of them or a family member, that’s when you learn to LOVE your brother, and HELP THOSE THAT NEED HELP. UNITED WE STAND divided WE FALL. Have a happy day and be nice to my friend Vern. Take care and again it was great talking to you again, Wisconsin all the way, we will prevail here. WE are stubborn as hell.
Barbara. Anyone reading his posts and comment responses can see that my Mission Viejo [almost] neighbor Geoff W. does not need nor seek support from third parties, especially myself. In fact many will tell you that he and I disagree withing our own city.
That being said he was not born with a silver spoon in his mouth and is now reaping his rewards for the seeds he previously planted.
Furthermore, any regular reader on the Juice will also confirm that I detest corporate welfare. In fact you speak of protecting the rights of others which is exactly what Geoff and I do. We fight to protect private property rights on behalf of victims when they have no desire to sell.
Obviously you disagree with both of us on the actions of your governor.
Your contribution on this debate are truly welcome.
Have a blessed weekend.
Ms. Tappa – You write well and you sound sincere, unfortunately you confuse unfounded platitude with fact. You are also mean spirited and full of venom. Don’t know who hurt you in the past but it must have been real bad.
“Poor people protesting that they’ve had their rights taken away.” Poor people? Really? The teachers and other public workers average a retiring pension of about $67,000 for those that have retired since 2009. The federal government definition of poor is about $11,000 for the continental US. Even starting salaries for teachers DISCOUNTING benefits (which is a BIG thing to discount) make three to four times more money that would define them as “poor.” Second, is poor good and successful bad? Sure sounds like that is what you are saying.
What “rights” are we talking about. There is NO inalienable “right” for collective bargaining. There is NO Constitutional “right” to collective bargaining. The Wisconsin legislature had previously created a statutory benefit scheme for public employees and now the legislature has changed that set of benefits – something legislatures do every day without impeding anyone’s “rights.”
“Lawyers are the only ones that obtain a license to steal.” That is incredibly offensive. Lawyers wrote the Declaration of Independence, the Bill of Rights and all of the other founding documents that we in this country cherish. Lawyers have incredibly harsh standards of ethics seldom found elsewhere, and certainly not in the teaching profession. As the son of two public school teachers, the husband of a public school teacher and the son in law of a public school teacher I am certainly not denigrating the teaching profession, I just find your remarks about a very noble profession churlish, rude and offensive.
“I’m not quite sure of your profession sir, but I know that you are not common folk, the ones that live paycheck to paycheck.” The truth is that you have no idea who I am. If I were to make such assumptions or unthinkingly use stereotypes like you do you would howl to the moon and call for my head. I have had to work hard all of my life for everything that I have. I have put myself through school, paid off all of my debts, taken care of my family, given back to the community without a single cent of inherited wealth or gifts from others. I don’t look for a handout, I have always assumed that I had to work hard to take care of my family and my community.
“The people that are, are now finally saying “enough is enough” and they are going to take back their country.” Take back THEIR country? When was it ever taken away? Are you saying that I don’t have a right to be a part of my own country. My family has been here a long long time. We fought on both sides of the civil war. We were rich and poor. We were preachers and teachers and farmers and warriors and frontiersmen and refugees. We are a part of the very fabric of this country and how dare you say that you are going to take that away from me.
From there your rant deteriorated to pure gibberish of anger and frustration – best I could make it out your theory is that poor is good and rich is bad. I don’t have time tonight to come up with a link to support my position, but I pretty sure that if you look at philanthropic acts they come far more from the right than from the left – I know that philanthropy both large and small is a key part of my life – right down to giving folks that need a hand a way to earn it, a place to stay when they need it and someone to talk to when that is what they need. You can call me greedy and selfish and corrupt all you want, I am pretty comfortable with who I am and how I treat people.
I hope that you get the help that you need.
First of all I am not mean spirited nor am I full of venom, YOU seem to be both the judge and the jury when it comes to me, I don’t need any help, thanks for caring though. In your opinion of me, you didn’t fully understand my statements. You are correct in one respect, first there was the Wagner Act passed in 1935. and then twelve years later there was the Taft-Hartley Act of 1947, which was passed because management thought that labor had too many controls.
The relationship between management and labor changed in 1981 when President Regan fired and replaced the Air Traffic controllers, previously it was legal but never done as it was thought to be wrong. U.S. labor law gives workers the legal right to unionize. I understand that the public sector is different than the private sector.
Now, in Wisconsin what we want is our rights, Republicans killed collective bargaining by taking the language out of a broader budget bill and making it stand-alone legislation. They claimed that doing so made it a non-fiscal matter, allowing them to vote without a quorum and the Senate’s Democrats.
They never announced there would be a vote on the split bill, which is a law that it should be announced 24 hours in advance, by doing this it showed that that part of the bill had nothing to do with balancing the budget.
The poor people I talked about were the people in Michigan, my parents, are 93 and 91 years of age and have been married 78 years. I asked that you look to see what the Senator did in the State of Michigan, I don’t know if you did that or if you cared to. Taxing senior citizens so that they can’t afford to keep their homes or anything they have to me is cruel and inhumane. That’s what I mean about “taking back our country” not for me, not for you, but in the name of the people that can’t march or defend themselves.
The remark about Lawyers having a license to steal, was a joke! I do have a sense of humor, but when it comes to the rights of the poor, the sick, the disabled, those are the people that I feel cannot take the hit that the Corporate entities are trying to “state wide” break. Let those that want their unions have their unions and collective bargaining rights, they have offered what Scott Walker asked for, all they wanted to do was talk and sit at the table and keep their “collective bargaining rights.
If you believe the news, then let me tell you, there has already been polls upon polls but I would make a bet that Wisconsin will be Democratic again this will take time to prove, but I have time. To argue with you on here, to make you feel as if I’ve belittled you or your family is not my intention at all.
I am not bitter, I have a fabulous family, three children, seven grandchildren, my parents still living, and as far as being hurt or bitter, not to my knowledge, so if I’ve offended you in any way at all, I apologize. Rich is fine, poor is fine, to me health and happiness is what makes you rich. I just want people to have the rights to be able to have their rights and if this were to balance the budget, so be it, but this was and is in every state, “Busting the Unions” and to me that is not anyones right to do, and to use POWER, when you’ve been voted in, by the people and to refuse to compromise, when you have 150,000 people at “their door” and you are inside welding the windows shut, is cowardly. This is happening in every state.
This is wrong, this will be found to be illegal and this will in the end, be the end of the middle class and therefore be a sad day. Have a good weekend and thank you for the services you provide. Again, I see on this blog that all people offend each other and it’s sad to think that we don’t take into consideration what we say before we speak.
I will try to follow thru with that if I ever come on here again.
“Now, in Wisconsin what we want is our rights, Republicans killed collective bargaining by taking the language out of a broader budget bill and making it stand-alone legislation.”……. Hmmmm
“collective bargaining” = lynch-mob on a taxpayer.
“we want is our rights”… and we taxpayers want them too.
FYI, to tax us is not your right, Barbara Tappa!!!!!!!!!!!
Obviously you are socialist Barbara Tappa so do not care about taxpayers and their starving children because their parents are taxed into a poverty.
You hate success because you are obviously a loooooser and must drag everyone with you into poverty by taxation without representation accept for your UNION thugs.
Rapscallion.
Have you used the word bifurcate?
In one sense this action is the opposite of Congress tacking on items to Legislation as it approaches final passage where they add some pork to lock up your vote of approval.
In a prior comment about job cuts in WI I would issue the first group of pink slips to every one of the MIA staff who have had no direct interface with their WI senators for the past three weeks.
gw great post the cry babies who cried those union loving goons that left the state because they dint want to take part in the process . you are elected to serve and vote.. if you dont like it vote no . who ever has the most votes wins that is our system . instead they took their ball and left the yard im not playing any more wa wa wa ..
Hm… I wonder why that “quorum” thing was put into the Wisconsin Constitution, and the Constitutions of so many other states. Were they idiots? Undemocratic?
Hey look! There’s also a provision for recalls in that Constitution. Whoa, cool!
Not sure I understand your point Vern. No one is saying that the Wisconsin legislature violated the quorum rules in any way. The approval was completely in line with the quorum provisions. No constitutional issue. The only issue raised is the open meeting law ruling which I think is ridiculous. For the unions/Dems to win that argument, they would have to say that they were never on notice that there was a bill pending which would curtail collective bargaining rights – that’s a pretty tough row to hoe.
Geoff, Geoff, Geoff… I was talking to the Grate One, not you. And HE was bitching about the Dems using the quorum rule as a sort of filibuster – a legitimate use.
Vern.
We set the record on recalls right here in CA.
How many states can boast of recalling BOTH a chief justice and a governor?
And on a local level activists in Mission Viejo recently recalled our mayor!
And a lot of Capistrano Trustees over the years!
Brother Vern.
How true!
Your complete lack of understanding about how the democratic process works is astounding. Yes, clearly the minority’s rights are not supposed to be protected–the majority says so!
I wonder–when the national Democrats had 59 Senators and almost 260 Congressmen, did you feel this way? After all, majority rules, right?
I can’t know for sure, but I’d bet anything I own you didn’t. Hypocrites to the last, you Republicans.
Yeah, but the awesome thing about being a hypocrite is they never have to admit it. Not even to themselves! Truly, this is the greatest freedom America has to offer.
*union Busting…..hmmm……even Teddy Roosevelt didn’t try that one! Well, we predict…as
Kriswell once said: “The days dwindle down to a precious few..,,September….November….
and these few precious days……….we will remember!~”
rw
So you’re saying the Democrats should’ve stayed and debated? Walker said he wasn’t open to negotiation or debate. He thinks he’s the emperor of Wisconsin. Unions even offered to take the necessary pay cuts, but he denied them, instead going after collectively bargaining specifically, making it utterly transparent that this just union busting.
Also, I like how you reduce average Americans (many of them teachers) to all being one big blob of hateful, faceless Union. I guess only the Tea Party is “real America,” everyone else is fake America. As for hateful? No. Violent? Nope. Angry? You betcha. This is an attack on the middle and lower classes by a corporate shill who thinks being elected governor makes him God King of the land.
You also call this “important legislation.” it’s not important as it doesn’t help the budget at all by attacking collective bargaining and, again, unions agreed to take any necessary pay cuts, and it’s a whole other debate whether they should have even had to do THAT much.
Then there’s this, which would make Karl Rove proud: “After subverting the democratic process for weeks, the Democrats whimper that the Republicans have violated the “spirit” of the law by taking this action.” What you’re saying here, in plain English is “So what if Republicans literally broke Wisconsin’s Open Meeting Law? It’s only fair, since the Democrats engaged in a legitimate political practice that I don’t like. That makes it ok. My logic is undeniable.”
Also, as a friend of mine pointed out, and I will paraphrase him:
“These people are protesting their right to petition being taken away.
Contrast that with the Tea Party who literally brought guns, I repeat, BROUGHT GUNS, to protest Obama’s plan to help poor people buy medicine.”
Your cognitivie dissonance is impressive, in the same way that a mold that grows to tremendous sizes inside an orange juice bottle would be impressive. I want to study it from a safe distance.
Of course I am saying that the Democrats should have stayed and debated – just like every minority party has had to do for more than two centuries. Obama care was a fete a complis and the Republicans did not leave DC en masse even though not a single Republican voted for it. This is NOT an “attack on the middle and lower classes” but an attack on the union bosses. If this is NOT imporatant legislation, why have you made half a dozen posts to the story?
You can whine and say Obamacare was totally unfair, but it was open to tons of debate, many concessions were given and there were many compromises. Walker made it clear he would not negotiate. I know you’ve been told this before, Geoff, so willfull ignorance has its limits and eventually just becomes you plugging your ears and going “La la la, can’t heaaar yoooooou.” And as someone pointed out, you moan and wail about how awful and anti-democratic those mean old Dems are, but as others have pointed out: what about the Republicans who held everything hostage until they got extensions for the Bush tax cuts? They wouldn’t allow any votes… including health care and support for 9/11 first responders. That’s right, the party that wrapped itself in jingoism and empty heroic rhetoric cast the real heroes aside until they could get their precious cuts for the richest 1%.
And if it’s an attack on the “union bosses,” how come the middle class and average, hard working Amercans still suffer? Acceptable collateral damage, I guess, to get at those nefarious union bosses. How many union bosses, by the way? Is it even half the number of actual people who will be affected negatively because of this? A fourth of the number? So you dislike union bosses, and thus it’s time to punish teachers. Right. Spare us, please.
And your use of the word “important” is loaded, meant to suggest it will help the state. It’s only important in the sense that it screws over a lot of average Americans and is then applauded by bitter people.
But if you really want to know why I made so many posts, it’s because ignoring crackpots and liars like you doesn’t always work. Oh, sure, sometimes it does, but then sometimes they turn into Glenn Beck, and Beck has pushed the fringe into the mainstream and legitimized them. People need to speak truth to brazen, petulant liars and hypocrites.
Nice use of metaphors coupling platitudes coupling catch phrases. Too bad there is no substance here. Ending public unions will have no negative impact on teachers, the classroom or education – just an end to the union bosses wealth.
Would that we could all live on your magical planet. Unfortunately for most of us, we have to make do with reality. I’ve tried giving you a tour of the place, but you seem unwilling to go along for the trip, so there’s little I can do to really sway you or change your mind. Thankfully, this was never really a goal. The main goal is to counter your lies and misdirections so that an open minded reader (assuming you get more readers than the ones we’ve essentially given you wrapped in a bow tonight) will have actual information rather than the nonsense you pass off, believing that smugness equals truthfulness.
Mags – To counter what you perceive to be “lies” you actually have to use facts. Here are the facts as I see them: 1) Republicans were swept into statewide office in Wisconsin running on a platform of fiscal conservancy; 2) Republicans start efforts to effectuate that platform by drafting legislation aimed at blanancing budget; 3) Public Unions, unlike their private counterparts, have no “back pressure” in their negotiations (in other words the underlying “company” the government does not have to be profitable so – in a private company if the union is too aggressive with wages the company folds and everyone loses – with public unions there is no similar “back pressure;” 4) Democrats realize that the people have not supported them enough at the ballot box to stop the passage of reasonable limitations on public unions; 5) elected Democrats “take their ball and go home” leaving Wisconsin and preventing any democratic vote on measures; 6) Republicans remove the portions of the bill requiring quorom and pass legislation; 7) unions and Democrats throw tantrums.
You may disagree with my facts, but you have presented far more pure vitrol and emotion than you have fact. You arrogantly assume that YOU are correct and everyone that disagrees with you, even a little bit, is arrogant and smug. Grow up.
Mags,
You’re missing the point. Republicans knew they were going to lose Obamacare but played within the rules to try to weaken it in any way they could. In the end, they couldn’t make a dent, but they didn’t flee D.C. to prevent a vote. The fleebaggers in Wisconsin refused to even get to the debate portion because they cowardly fled the state, rather than engage in the lawful process.
That’s funny to hear a rightie admit that now – the Republicans in Congress were “only trying to WEAKEN” Obamacare when they were pretending to try to improve it with amendment after amendment many of which were approved.
Vern, you can twist my words all you want, but Republicans knew that they couldn’t stop Obamacare so they did all they could to mute its impact. At least now that some provisions are going into effect, the lies the President and Democrats told are coming to light.
Your governor used a slimy, underhanded tactic to strip public unions of their rights for no other reason than to stick it to his political opponents, AS ADMITTED BY HIS SENATE MAJORITY LEADER. A simple prank phone call let the people of Wisconsin know that they elected a sniveling Koch brothers toady to be their governor.
I’d say they have a good deal to be angry about, don’t you? Unions exist to protect worker rights because employers cannot and SHOULD NOT ever be completely trusted to “do the right thing”. Wasn’t it your hero Ronald Reagan who said “Trust, but verify”? Well, unions are the “verify”.
Also, perhaps you should remember that the Tea Partiers are such good, peaceful protestors that they brought GUNS to protest the President’s plan to help poor and elderly people purchase medicine.
The employer in this case is The State. Bargaining rights for people already employed in the cushy state jobs with benefits far surpassing of those granted to Real People, yes that is what is needed. State Walkers want more take home pay? Well they can opt out to stop paying their Union Dues.
The work of elected officials in the Republic is to represent the will of your constituents in the Democratic process. Part of the Democratic Process is to submit to the will of the Majority, or the Super Majority as required by Law. Not go and hide in neighbouring state.
Those senators represented the will of their constituents, which was to NOT have worker’s rights returned to pre-20th century levels. Since they could not do that in Wisconsin, they did it the only way they could. Those 14 Democrats showed more balls than any US Congressional Democrats have shown in the last ten years.
I assume you condoned the Republican abuse of the filibuster in Washington? If so, then you’re a hypocrite, just like your fellow Republicans.
Yeah, as far as what the constituents want? The polls show pretty clearly that the majority is against Walker’s union gutting games. But I suppose suddenly the will of the majority isn’t such a big deal, is it? Oh, and after all, Walker and Fitzgerald say they have a mandate! Republicans always seem to have mandates, even when public support doesn’t seem to back that up. Weird. I’m sure they’re not lying, though.
Also, nice “Real People” thing (I guess only real people get to be capitalized). I guess teachers aren’t real people, then? Nor firefighters or police officers. Just weird, disgusting leeches who get taxpayer money for no reason whatsoever.
Maybe instead of being in the party of personal envy and sour grapes, you should be lobbying to help “Real People” enjoy those same benefits and be treated decently by employers? Or is bitterness just more fun?
Not sure which polls you are reading but the polls show that clearly the vast majority of citizens in Wisconsin are FOR the reductions in benefits and there is a close split over the collective bargaining issues.
I have looked at the polling questions and none of them (on either side) really frame the question of whether THESE collective bargaining right changes are supported or opposed so no one really has good data yet.
Refer to the polls I posted in a comment further down. What polls are you referring to?
Yes, you can cherry pick left wing polls to show anything you want – here is a poll supporting my position and there are many more:
http://blogs.forbes.com/mikeozanian/2011/03/06/nfl-and-wisconsin-polls-showing-support-for-players-and-governor-walker/
Wow, stop reading the liberal union blogs and actually listen to the phone conversation. Walker said everything to the faker he said in public and he refused to take the fakers sexist and other bait.
I would like you to explain in detail why you think Republican filibustering isn’t a tantrum, but Democrats using the same tactic is “childish”.
I also assume you were against the toothless mess that was Obamacare. Can you cite any examples where Democrats used illegal means in order to “ram” it through, as the Republicans have used to push this bill?
On the subject of Obamacare, why are you and other “Tea Partiers” so silent on the millions of dollars being slashed to Medicare and Badgercare, something the “Tea Party” claimed Obamacare would do and rallied the elderly to fight it?
Kyle, the Dems did not need to use “illegal means to ‘ram’ it [Obamacare] through” because the Republicans did not abdicate their responsibilities and flee DC. They stayed and debated what turned out to be a losing cause at the time and which turned out to be a pivotal issue at the polls two years later.
Illegal means are justified because the Regressives wouldn’t debate any aspect of the bill?
You also handily avoided my other question. Why is there no outrage that Walker is slashing Medicare, something the Regressive party made clear the Democrats would do, and swore up and down they would never do that?
I like how people keep saying “The democrats who fled the state abandoned the democratic process”. Ignoring the fact that Republicans were willing to prevent literally any bill from being passed until they were allowed to renew the Bush tax cuts (By the way, this included a bill to provide health care support to firefighters who developed chronic lung problems saving people from the twin towers), stalling a vote to prevent the tyranny of the majority from forcing through any legislation they feel like is PART of the democratic process.
The only ones who don’t seem interested in Democracy here are the Republicans, seeing as how they’re the only ones who have actually broken the law.
I agree completely, Comrade. When those opposed to the Party do a thing, it is wrong, even when those who are in alignment with, or – praise Rand! – true Members of the Party do it and are in the right. Truly, with the power of such reasoning, there is no golden throne we cannot seize.
Or to put it more seriously:
Did you complain when the Republicans, three months ago, were willing to block any action in the federal legislature, if their demands regarding the tax code were not met? Or did you agree with that, and not this one? Truly, the only moral filibuster is my filibuster.
Nonsensical at best. Hard to figure out your point through all of the nonsense, but best I can tell you are equating abdicating responsibility by leaving the state and not doing your job with a filibuster which is constitutionally allowed. I don’t think I even have to explain the illogic in that thinking.
Please die in a fire.
“Some Guy” – thanks for showing the level of discourse the Union authorizes and promotes then their fiefdom is challenged. If this is a serious death threat, it will not be taken lightly.
Yes, Geoff, this random commenter on the internet making an immature statement is clearly representative of all unions and speaks for them, totally justifying the confused points you’re trying to make.
And you accuse others of being childish? Honestly.
So you reject the rantings of one and refuse to apply his/her comment to the entire movement. I would bet money you did/do the opposite when it comes to the Tea Party. And you’ve ignored the very real and scary email death threat Geoff references above, as well as the thuggish tactics many union supporters have used in Wisconsin and elsewhere, including outright assault. But I’m not surprised a liberal would ignore the facts.
“Please die in a fire”
This must be the new civility and discourse that everyone was talking about after the Giffords shooting. When wishing for someone’s death, always say “please.”
Some guy…are you from the Newark of Wisconsin: Racine?
Guy,
Liberals just about everywhere, including on here, have been ironically silent as video after video and now documents have surfaced showing thuggery and death threats by union supporters against legislators and Tea Partiers. The left quickly has forgotten the pleas from their idolized leaders for civil discourse and I have yet to see President Obama, Nancy Pelosi, or any other visible lefty legislators condemning the hateful rhetoric coming from the pro-union folks in Wisconsin (don’t worry, I won’t hold my breath).
Yawn… OFFICIAL STATEMENT FROM LIBERAL VERN. I am against all death threats and violence even from my own side, and stand with law enforcement and the judicial system in cracking down on said threats and violence. Period. *yawn…*
OK you can breathe now, Newbie.
Well Vern, we’re up to 18 Wisconsin Republicans with death threats against them and one blogger on here, and all we have from the left is your patronizing response and nothing else.
Some idiot said “Please die in a fire” to Geoff, which was certainly rude and mean and out of place, but you guys call that a death threat? You cheapen language.
I’m serious that a death threat like Geoff described in his first update should be investigated and punished. It’s boring to always have to say that. Then next month we’ll hear about some death threat or misbehavior from the right, and some of us will be all, “Hey, when are Geoff and Newbie gonna condemn that?” And then you’ll do that, but you’ll bring up something someone on the left did … it’s all so childish.
Some idiot said “Please die in a fire” to Geoff, which was certainly rude and mean and out of place, but you guys call that a death threat? You cheapen language……. Hmmmmm
Agree!
I say “Please die in a tsunami” to bolsheviks.
Newbie, you may want to read my contribution on who are the models of civility when it comes to political discourse.
You can say that they (or we…I’m including myself as one of their biggest advocates) strive for “higher” standards.
SOME GUY MUST BE A UNION GOON .. ALSO MAGS WHERE ARE YOUR GETTING YOUR INFO POLL AFTER POLL SHOWS THE PEOPLE ARE FOR THIS LIKE WILLIS SAID . YOU MUST BE GETTING YOUR INFO FROM MSHATEBC
Walker has a 53% general dissaproval rating 51% oppose his plan and 65% want him to compromise (source: Wisconsin Policy Research Institute)
Rassmussen has the dissaproval rate at 57%
This isn’t strictly Wisconsin, but as for specifically the collective bargaining rights issue, 61% oppose, 33% support, with 6% listing “other,” It should be noted that this is the poll that Fox news flipped to make it seem like Americans favored walker. This is a nationwide USA Today/Gallup poll.
It would’ve helped if you’d linked to the polls you mentioned, as well.
Typing in all caps does not make you more credible. You may be surprised to learn that the opposite is true. This is also the case when you make “cutesy” names for things you dislike (MSHateBC, really? How old are you?)
A web site that I have never previously heard of called “Something Awful” (and from a quick glance appears to live up to its name) has a series of comments attacking not only the thoughts in this post but me personally. Someone found me by researching Facebook and described me as
“your typical Republican scum of the earth sort of thing.
The guy has a facebook page. Would it surprise you to know that he’s fat, white and pretty reasonably well off?”
I find it funny that he was able to draw a reasonably accurate picture from my Facebook picture alone. Evidently racism and attacks on someone’s weight are OK as long the target victim is a Republican. I actually have a comedy routine in draft form that talks about the fact that the “politically correct” only allow humor to mock fat, white, Southern, Christians and I am three of the four.
I also had this wonderfully insightful comment posted:
“I let that %*&^ have it. Seriously, my hands were almost shaking I was so angry.
And yes, I know that he’s probably a coward who doesn’t like having his cognitive dissonance disrupted, so my comments will probably be deleted.”
Sorry Bozo, we actually do not censor comments here no matter how stupid they are, so even though yours was stupid, it is here for all of the world to see.
There were many other similar very interesting nuggets of wisdom posted on this “Awful” site. If you are truly bored, here is the link:
http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3394936&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=61
I was WONDERING how this post got so many comments… and saw that everyone was linking from this Something Awful site. (although I couldn’t find the parts that talked about you or this post.) You’ve got nearly 300 hits already, and there’s only like 30 on MY Wisconsin post!
And I have been deleting a few comments that are just nasty.
But I’m trying to figure out how we can get ALL of our posts onto Something Awful!
You have to admit, we got 3 or 4 new QUALITY liberal commenters. I hope they come back to this site.
To let you know, That site is wonderful. You experienced the one thread that had to do with this WI disaster. Before you call all of the people on there awful you should actually look at some of the site. And to be quite honest, many of the people that reference that site are fat white males. and its not only fat, white, Southern, Christians that get made fun of, its everyone, all the time.
Just because those people that made you sad are liberals, they are not bad people.
and yesterday and today I’d estimate a good 2500 dollars has been donated to various democratic organizations and many have attended the protests. Which is probably more than what you have done while you sit here and complain
The site may be wonderful to some, but I did find it so. I completely support and emulate your philanthropy if even for VERY different causes.
Someone on that site actually donated one thousand dollars to the recall campaign, just based on how amazed they were at your smug and silly blog post. I have to admit, that tickles me a bit. They had some rather unkind words for you, Geoff, but I’ll leave it up to them if they wish to post them here. Or you can find them yourself on the Something Awful thread you linked to, though I don’t think you’ll go back there.
But really, it’s kind of ironic: You otherwise would have accomplished nothing but preaching to a choir that seems to number in the dozens, but instead you inadvertently acted as an unwilling force for good. Crazy world, isn’t it?
And that was just one donation. Many of us had already donated prior to this (though there were a few others who also did so after seeing this blog post), so I congratulate you on that. This is, quite possibly, the best and maybe only useful thing you will ever have done.
http://www.actblue.com/page/recallrepublican8
Here’s the link, if anyone else would like to donate. Doesn’t have to be much. Heck, I only gave five bucks (for now), but every little bit counts.
Unfortunately you will probably get a few of the unwitting to continue to contribute to the cause of the union bosses and their Orwellian double speak.
Wait, wait. There are people who actually support Walker now? I guess those 20% had to be SOMEWHERE.
You’re right Unicorn, Walker only got elected with 20% of the vote. Must be another liberal good at fuzzy math.
I think there’s a good chance that Scott Walker and the Wisconsin GOP may have just handed the Democratic Party a huge victory in 2012! The voters of Wisconsin already regret choosing Walker in November.
I predict the opposite. I think the silliness and violence in the past week will work against the Dems.
hey bags or mags how do you know that fox flipped the poll . do you have some union goon inside fox news that told you this i seriously dont think so . for every poll you put out their is one on the other side . the people of wisc voted they wanted reform they are going to get it and you and your blood sucking unions dont have the gravy train any more . we need people like walker and the gov of n j out here some folks with some balls to take on the ONE SIDED UNIONS .. HOW IS THAT JUST FOR YOU BAGS .BIG CAPS . as far as for you ..how old are you ..are you a wet behind the ears NOBAMA supporter .. yes CHANGE WE CAN BELIVE IN .. HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Idiota. The FOX guy actually apologized for flipping the poll.
oh and carl im sure the people of the usa regret who are pres is right now too .
This whole thing is an attack on unions and indirectly on the Democratic party, who unions usually support. Destroy the unions = destroy the Dems it least that is what many Republicans feel.
THe outragious salaries and pensions that are batted around are mostly in administrative and appointed posts. Guess what? Those are not usually union positions.
Teachers that I know earn maybe 50K here, less back east.
Does everyone have to give something up? Sure. Why are we not also asking about pension for appointed and administrative positions that make much more money and retirement than the workers we seem to be focusing cuts on?
I would agree that all pension abuses should be identified and removed. Simple solution would be for everyone to have to fund their own pension. That would make it an apples to apples comparison. YOU WILL NEVER SEE public unions agree to that kind of fairness.
Many private sector jobs provide pension plans. Social security is a safety net that is provided to retirement age privately employed persons, by taxes on the current workforce. Most public employees will not recieve Social Security.
Public Employee unions should have the right to bargain for these as well as compensation.
The reason I brought up these administrative and appointed posts is that most are not Union, but many have been used as examples of excessive pensions, to trick us into thinking union members get excessive retirement as a standard practice.
It isn’t a trick, public union members do get excessive retirement packages as a standard practice. Statewide, those retiring 2009 or after AVERAGE $67,000 per year in pension payments and many are able to retire at 50 and then augment their pension with income from another job.
Good thing public employees, from Costa Mesa to Wisconsin to Capo Unified to Sacramento, have been willing to give up a lot of these gains – made during better economic times – at least temporarily.
Too bad that’s not enough for some draconian governments, who want to destroy the unions altogether, or at least make them utterly irrelevant by taking away their bargaining rights.
What gains are you talking about Vern? Salary freezes or slight decreases? Having to pay a little bit more for their own retirement or health benefits (still lower than in the private sector)? And as you said it, only until things get better and we’ll be right back where we started. I don’t see any public employees offering to go to a 401(k)-type system like the private sector where you truly do have fully-funded pensions.
yeah, yeah, but we’ll never agree because I know where you guys are coming from…
You firmly believe, or have convinced yourselves, that our current economic woes are caused by public employee pensions, instead of financial deregulation, unfunded wars, and irresponsible tax cuts.
The 401k system will never work well for all because the average person doesn’t have the financial knowledge about how to invest. The financial business types love it because they get to suck fees out of that system, of course.
A defined benefit plan for all who contribute is the best way to go–and to have a bit of financial security as they grow old. That has to be a shocking thought for some–like universal health care. The horror!
Vern, no Republican I know thinks that all of our financial woes are related to public employee benefits and pensions, but all of the evidence points to them as a large contributor. And since more and more public employees with sweetheart deals are going to be retiring in the coming years, it’s only going to get worse.
A lot of those deal were made by Republicans as well as Democrats to reduce current costs over the past several years. A trade off so to speak. We borrowed from our public employees current pay and promised to pay them back later with interest.
67 k is really not a lot of money especially in California. I agree that mutiple public pensions should not be allowed.
I love the logic Mr. Benson. Since Republicans in the past mayhave been part of the problem on granting sweet pensions to public employees, it makes them ok now. And since you deem $67,000 per year in pension payments “no a lot of money” the payments are ok as well. Are you aware that the median US household income last year was approximately $50,000, meaning that the average pension (of which the public employee paid for only a fraction of the pension, if at all) is over 30% larger than the median household income? Keep up the good work.