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Some people say nothing but stupid things and you worry that blogging about them simply gives the undeserving too much attention. A group of Mission Viejo anti-everythings led by Dale Tyler and Joe Holtzman fall into that category. I think that my posts here have consistently demonstrated that I am for a smaller government that taxes the citizenry carefully and only when needed. Apparently, many of the naysayers believe that the sole function of government is to properly repave roads.
In the past few months, the naysayers have opposed the following as “outrageous” examples of government spending gone wild: 1) City sponsored movie nights, 2) City sponsored crafts classes, 3) City sponsored pancake breakfasts, 4) STATE sponsored job search assistance and 5) staff office furniture. THESE are the concerns that this group cares enough about to sacrifice good electronic ink and space to attack. I am not kidding.
In the latest version of his VERY lightly read “Watchdog” blog, Mr. Tyler rants that the City of Mission Viejo has usurped private entertainment options in the City:
It is a challenge to find private sector events when a city’s government has usurped the role of entertainment provider. City hall is fully engaged in offering “free” movies, “free” classes and “free” meals – at taxpayer expense, of course. Even when attendees pay to attend city events, the admission is often a token amount that doesn’t cover taxpayers’ cost.
Really?? This is what you want to talk about? These are the same yahoos that penned and supported Measure D which would have required a full vote of the people to add daycare to a church – great use of City expense there. The cost of that unnecessary and ridiculous ballot measure ($150,000-$250,000) cost more than several decades of free movies, craft classes and pancake breakfasts.
Mr. Tyler then launches an attack on $15,000 the City RECEIVED from the state as a grant to assist in job searches:
Mission Viejo’s library received a $15,000 grant from the state of California to offer “free” (taxpayer funded) workshops on how to get a job. Here’s information (at no cost to taxpayers) that would be even more beneficial to those seeking jobs or trying to stay employed. City hall should stop rezoning commercial properties to residential, thereby preserving potential businesses and jobs in Mission Viejo. Presenting taxpayer-funded workshops to help people compete for fewer jobs is not the best plan.
Again, really?? Yes, we should stop supporting the job searches of those in need because . . . sorry Mr. Tyler, missed your point here again.
The problem with folks like Mr. Tyler is that they are simply against everything and only have the ability to attack and not build. They will be the first to tell you what they DON’T want, but never have a plan to do something to make the City a better place. Other than street repair, I have never heard Mr. Tyler or his group point out an example of good government or a good government program. Maybe they are so far to the right that they have actually moved over to the left and joined the anarchists who believe that there should be no government – I refuse to try and mind read such an inarticulate and muddled set of positions.
While I do believe in small government, I have no problem with showing the “Tooth Fairy” on the lawn of a park for the community to enjoy. I have no problem with those using the Murray Center taking craft classes. I think that pancake breakfasts can be fun. The Naysayers attack on everything causes any real message they have to be lost in the garbled clutter of their angry words.
Bravo Mr. Willis! It is wonderful to see an intelligent and cogent argument out of Mission Viejo on here. Extremely well done, Sir. And Kudos to Vern for giving you the space for your electronic ink. You’ve just raised the stature of this blog several levels with one post.
If one goes back ten to fifteen to twenty years, one can find members of this group using similarly arguments in adamant opposition to the Mission Viejo Animal Services Center and the Mission Viejo Library. Yet, both of these municipal facilities are unqualified success stories when “success” is measured in terms of satisfied residents, that is, in terms of lost pets rescued and reunited with anxious owners, new homes found for animals whose owners could no longer care for them, ill and injured animals treated (at no cost to taxpayers), library cards issued, books and materials circulated, puzzling questions researched and answered, stories read aloud to young children, and pre-readers encouraged to begin a lifelong romance with the printed word.
Sherri. Former mayor of Mission Viejo. You are so wrong.
Back in 1994, while I was in Orlando, Florida, a rookie reporter for the Register attended a meeting of the Saddleback Republican Assembly held in Clifton’s cafeteria in Laguna Hills. Shortly thereafter I was quoted as being opposed to the new city library. Interesting. I was 3,000 miles away when that meeting took place and never spoke to that young lady.
After being contacted about the SV News article, and getting my compliant, the Register ran a correction in that weekly community paper a week or two weeks later retracting the reporters coverage.
That didn’t stop you from using that original and bogus Saddleback Valley News story in one of your multiple hit piece mailers against me in that Nov election. Want a copy? It’s in my file for future reference as needed.
We were so thankful for the fine job you did as mayor we threw you out of office in 2002. in 1998 you were elected finishing first with 13,591 votes yet 4 years later the voters of Mission Viejo threw you out. Let’s see. Your final vote was5,487. I guess you turned off over 8,100 voters.
Your partner mayor and vice mayor Susan Withrow did not fare too well herself. In the 1998 election she finished second to you with 13,479. Fast forward to 2002 where she finished 6th with 4,781 votes. I guess the voters felt others could do a better job.
And there, ladies and gentlemen, is Larry Gilbert in a nutshell (figuratively speaking). Just a sad, bitter man who NEVER was elected to anything, but ran for everything. All this history changing is pathetic. Larry has never supported anything that would benefit the citizens of Mission Viejo. Ever.
Now we only hear of his rantings from years and years ago, fighting shadows. You have never lifted a finger for this city. Are you trying to tell us now that you SUPPORTED the library? Oh please……
Well Larry, to use your own words regarding the multiple times YOU LOST: “I guess the voters felt others could do a better job.”
MVWatcher.
When anyone criticizes another they are leaving themselves open for a rebuttal.
S&S were kicked out by the voters. The last time I checked I cast three votes in 2002. They were for Trish, Lance and John Paul Ledesma.
As to winning elections I’ll take you down another road to point out that I defeated your hero Frank Ury when we competed for the position of president of the Saddleback Republican Assembly. He may have forgotten that election but the SRA Board members have not.
Clown. Perhaps you can confirm with Trish that as her campaign manager we worked together to save the Sierra rec center from the wrecking ball as per the agenda of our last city manager.
Why am I taking the bait from a wimp who can’t remember or is simply too chicken to use his real name. That’s another area where Geoff Willis and I agree. You want to debate but hide behind your skirt.
MV Watcher—-errrr Dan Avery–how about some more of your Nazi films !! Maybe next time you could be a little creative–rather than purloining others works !!
Interesting Larry, because during the building of the Library you were very vocal about the wasted money to me and other members of our Rotary group. You started “speaking” for Rotary and had to be warned to stop by myself and other past presidents. When you didn’t respect the Rotary Boards positive position on the library we (the Board) finally had to write a letter to then Mayor Sheri Butterfield. When you stepped up to the podium and started speaking for Rotary once again, Mayor Butterfiled read the letter. It is all in the public record Larry, I know how important that is to you.
Well if it isn’t Victoria, Mayor Dave’s treasurer and wife of Dan.
Thanks for bringing up this topic as some have accused me of failing to support our community. Let me read a letter from the Rotarty Club of Mission Viejo dated September 27,1999.
“Dear Larry:
It is with sincere regret that we accept your resignation from the Mission Viejo Rotary Club.
Your contribution to our club during your membership has been an asset and your presence will be missed. We hope that you will consider returning in the future.
We wish you the best in your new endeavors.”
As to the city library. When seeking funds for this major CIP the library Foundation asked for donations from the community and city vendors. In recognition of that assistance all of the donors would be acknowledged with their names placed on a wall inside the building.
As two years had passed since our donation, and many residents pointed out that said recognition had not occured, I attended a council meeting, mentioning that I was a member of Rotary and pointed out our sizable contribution. How would I have knowledge of the amount and date of the donation if I was not a member?
In his letter to Mayor Butterfield MV Rotary Club president Jack Keegan, Jr wrote, and I quote:
As President of the Rotary Club of Mission Viejo, and on behalf of our Board of Directors, I am writing to clarify comments made at a recent City Council Meeting.
We understand that when Mr. Larry Gilbert addressed the Council regarding our Rotary Club’s donation to the City of Mission Viejo Library, he implied, or conveyed, that he was speaking on behalf of the Club.
We fully recognize Mr. Gilbert’s right to express his personal opinions on any matter, including the donation of funds to the library. We do, however, want to be perfectly clear that in this instance, he was speaking as an individual citizen and not on behalf of Rotary.”
As I retain all these VITAL documents let me post my June 7th 1999 council comments:
“I wish to commend Bob Evans for advising us that the library donor wall was never erected. On April 22nd of 1997 the Rotary Club of Mission Viejo contributed $3,000 to the library. Our checks were payable to the City of M.V. Library account for which we were to receive recognition. The only people to be recognized was our Mayor, with a room named after her, and the Kershaw Garden. As a contributor to the library I would like to inform our club at tomorrow’s meeting when that recognition will occur. Your flyer closes by saying and I quote “leave your mark on the M.V. Library and touch the future” end of quote. Not only have you chosen to ignore our contribution for over two years I wonder how many dedicated Library Foundation supporters were also neglected, whose contributions should also appear on the alleged donor wall. Thank you.”
In that same meeting Library Foundation President and Vice President, Dr. Alan Zeltzer and Donna Varner, expressed a similar concern for the delay.
Query. Did I state my representing the Rotary Club in that speech?
Notice that the Rotary president was writing to Sherri on third party hearsay with words such as “we understand” or that I “implied” speaking on behalf of the club. Prior to resigning I devoted five years to the club as publicity chair. I resigned based on the knee jerk reaction from the club without first checking out all the facts. Juice regulars know that I do not sugar coat the facts contained in my writing. The truth will set you free.
The final bell for Mayor Butterfield was when we removed Sherri’s name off of the Library. We celebrated that new council action. Having played a role in that decision might explain her angst towards myself but it goes with the hood.
Note: I still have my photos taken just before the Sherri M. Butterfield plaque was removed.
The delay. Sherri needed two years to verify the proper spelling of the names. Amazing, but this is what we were told.
Have you noticed when some MV residents take a pot shot at me whenever I bring up OLD NEWS yet Mayor Leckness’s Treasurer quotes from a 1999 event. Yup. Selective timing plays a role.
So many times these “clowns” have tried to get seats on the council, and with stupid postings like Tyler’s we can see why they always lose. These are very hateful people, who just want to constantly complain. We see their puppet Schlcht on TV embarrassing herself twice a month, this town is so over them.
Are these the people who, in Grover Norquist’s words, want to “shrink government down to the size where they can drown it in their bathtubs?”
Well put Vern. Couldn’t have said it better myself.
That’s funny, Vern
Wish I could take credit for it, but it really is something Grover Norquist said, famously, at least 20 years ago (when asked if he wanted to shrink government.)
Interesting to see SB engaged. She opposed Kelley and Ury. Her hit pieces on Kelley said she was inexperienced, a one issue candidate and the city would be ruined if she won. With Ury, she voted no to him being on either commission that I tried to appoint him to, Craycraft saved him with his third vote. Ledesma was the second.
As for what we have supported, I supported the improvements and expansions on the Animal shelter, Ury was the only NO vote.
OH dear, I guess sherri was right after all.
Madame Mayor.As we look in our rear view mirrors do you recall this factoid. Another recall that many Juice readers were not aware of or have forgotten.
Pageant of the Masters President Sherri Butterfield being recalled when she was found to be negotiating with the city of San Clemente to move the Pageant away from Irvine Bowl Park in Laguna Beach. A Laguna Beach council member called it “cultural theft.” The Pageant is a long time favorite of tourists and locals bringing thousands of artists and over 100,000 visitors to this seaside city.
An old article provides a look back:
“OPINION
Festival Board Trying to Fix What’s Not Broken
September 7, 2003I have been involved with the Pageant of the Masters and Festival of Arts for more than 20 years. Gene Felder hit it on the head when he said that board members are stewards of a miracle and that any financial difficulties come from the board’s risky, grandiose ambitions. The previous board, under the disastrous leadership of Sherri Butterfield, nearly broke the organization trying to move the festival to San Clemente, an idea that was doomed to failure. They were rightly recalled.”
As we read comments from others at times it’s important to know who they are, not just what title they held. Sherri and Susan disappeared from the city of Mission Viejo after being blown away in 2002 as documented previously. They were not seen at any events until 2010 with the recall of Lance MacLean whom they supported and later abandoned.
Larry Gilbert what does your attack on Sherri Butterfield have to do with the article by Geoff Willis? Nothing. You are Mr. “Let’s Stay on Thread” here, but you’ve highjacked this one to save your tax-evading buddy Dale Tyler. Your are a complete and utter fraud. You call places trying to dig up dirt and start the conversation with “This is Larry Gilbert from the city of Mission Viejo.” While factually true, we all know what the person on the other end assumes. Gail Reavis is as two-faced and unfamiliar with the truth as you are. She claims not to have sued the city ever, and the will tell you she didn’t sue for money. The truth is she sued the city for $10,025,000.
Last year these two Debbie Downers along with Tyler and Morton caused the election costs in Mission Viejo to rise 658% or well over $500,000. Which, Mr. Willis so wisely pointed out is many “decades of free movies, craft projects, and pancake breakfasts.” A few years ago, Morton all by himself convinced 3 council members that the State mandate for affordable housing was voluntary, so they voted it down, and the next day the city was sued for $750,000 and lost. If we add in what the city had to pay to the former city manager because these baboons were stalking him, we’re way over $2,000,000. Shall I keep going, Larry? You would deny kids shade because “the city can’t afford it?”
The minute one of you clowns actually has to shell out your own money as a consequence for your ill-conceived actions (like a libel suit that will take your house away) you will all finally slink back into the festering pile of ooze from whence you slithered.
You know my name. No I don’t but let’s move on. No. Move On has a bad connotation.
When a former mayor jumps into the discussion outsiders might wish to learn something about his or her credentials. There is more to be added as it relates to former mayor Butterfield such as her chastizing a Superior Court judge when convicted of violating the Ralph M Brown Act using the personal stationary of our former city manager.
Dan Joseph was not very happy in hearing about it and later deleted his letterhead from that same letter. I was fortunate to get a copy before Dan took that action and retain it in my numerous political files.
Copies 25 cents each. I will not undersell the city on any non form 460 copies.
Now we have Frank Ury joining the debate. Or is it one of his sun worshippers
On the night of her defeat, they were singing and dancing in the streets of Laguna Beach.
“ding dong the witch is ….”. (just a song from Wizard of OZ).
Children, children…. people outside Mission Viejo are hearing you!
Vern,
It’s good to have more action outside of Santa Ana and Fullerton – but I’m biased since I live in M.V.
No, that happened in Mission Viejo when you left office. I know things get confusing for you some times.
Geoff.
To set the record straight for those not familiar with this banter between Geoff Willis and Gail Reavis let me provide some historical facts.
Gail Reavis ran for the Mission Viejo city council twice. Her first campaign was in 2000 when she defeated Roger Faubel who spent around $80,000 in losing. She was reelected in 2004 and served her full four year term. Gail did not enter the race for a third term in 2008. However Gail and Rick were on the team who elected three of our current council members on their first attempts. Trish Kelley, Cathy Schlicht and Rhonda Reardon.
Now let’s recap Sherri Butterfield. Recalled as president of the Pageant of the Masters Board and dumped from our council in 2002 after 8 years of continuous service at a time when over 90 percent of incumbents were reelected.
She resurfaced after a seven year sabatical in order to support Lance MacLean who himself was recalled on Feb 2nd of 2010.
Sherri quickly jumps ship to support Rick S and Dave L and somehow forgot how to spell Lance’s last name this past November.
While Geoff writes that some were “singing in the streets” after Gail left office she went out a winner, never had her name placed on a park sign or building, and continues to be a watchdog on behalf of our citizens.
and as Paul Harvey would say, now you know the rest of the story.
Well let me just add a fact, a real one, a collection was taken up to the tune of $80,000 to spend to defeat Reavis because she was the most corrupt politician in the history of the city. When a representative approached Reavis and said, “quit or be destroyed” the truly courage Madame Mayor (sic) ran home like a scared little girl. That is exactly, no more and no less, how respected Gail Reavis is among Republicans who can and do think for themselves.
Geoff Willis is rather amusing!! I would say Geoff Willis is The Mission Viejo Clown supreme !!
Geoff is once again showing is total lack of knowledge of the history of Mission Viejo.
Perhaps Geoff, you should get a perspective on the community before you attack the very same people who have contributed significantly to it. You just might want to look in a mirror before you start calling concerned citizens clowns !!
Perhaps Mr Willis should start by reading: Mission Viejo: The Ageless Land, From Prehistory to Present. Only then can Geoff start to understand Mission Viejo. By the way Geoff you will see me in a number of pictures. Geoff, I don’t notice you at all in this “History Book”.
By the way, Sherri Butterfiedl was effectively fired from the EDITORS position of that history book-why–because she took 4 years to edit one chapter. After Sherri was “fired” it took the committee six months to complete the work Ms. Butterfield sat on for those four years. By the way Geoff I was on that committee–where were you ?
Another note–Ms. Butterfiel took 19 months to “edit” the names of contributors to the library. After a lot of “grumbling” this task was taken from her. This is just another example of Ms. Butterfield’s inability to get a job done on a timely basis. I might note Ms. Butterflied was also” fired” by the folks in Laguna Beach after she attempted to hi-jack The Pageant of The Masters ! So, is Ms Butterfield your ” Patron Saint, the Geoff Willis Gold Standard ??
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Ohhh–and yes Geoff, when you go to the library you just might note that Sherri. Butterfield eliminated 26 parking spaces with Palm tress that could have been located much more effectively.
Hey, aren’t you the same Joe Holtzman that ran someone over with your car after stalking them in the middle of the night a few months ago? I think you should shut your mouth and grow crawl under whatever rock spawned you. You’re a first class douche.
Very, and I mean extremely, well put.
Mr. Holtzman, just because you have been a destructive and negative force in Mission Viejo for a VERY LONG TIME, doesn’t make you a positive part of Mission Viejo’s history. My family was here a loooooonnnggg time before you if you want to play that game. You are the classic naysaying naybob bent on destruction and incapable of positive growth. I stand by my post.
Still, Joe is invited to my Mission Viejo performance tomorrow, as long as he promises not to ram the piano with his car.
Vern. Whatever your smoking its dangerous to your health. Mission Viejo’s Murray Center is a no smoking zone, or it should be.
Kidding. It will be a no-recriminations zone on Saturday at 7.
AHHHHHHHH
“Reporter” Larry
It is “you are” —“you’re” not “your”. You must go to the holtzman school of illiteracy.
ahhhhhhhh,,,,,,,,,,,
Vern, that is the funniest thing that you have EVER posted. Bravo!
Bravo Joe, simply brilliant. The post is on Dale Tyler, yet you just take shots at Sherri Butterfield because she simply posted a few facts that you and your buddies hate Mission Viejo. As Larry complains, way to go off topic. With this kind of hate after all these years, it is obvious you have some serious issues.
Well, at least you don’t spend your time talking down to Geoff (oh wait, you did). You are such a class act, Joe, i know that we are all so proud of you. Since you seem to love history so much, why didn’t you tell Geoff about the time you came to a council meeting and told Trish Kelley that there was a special place in hell reserved just for her? That would have been interesting. Yes, Joe, just a class act you are.
Mango–I suggest you get up to date. That was just another Sandzilier fabrication–like his dodging and ducking on his employment. Like his serial trespassing, and his stalking of opposing candidates–ref. the CVS parking lot incident.
Yes Geoff–if you call being involved with the planting of over 575 trees in Mission Viejo–consider me destructive!!
If you consider being a driver in the biggest Mission Viejo HOA to save hundreds of thousands of dollars thru water conservation and planting drought tolerant plants–consider that destructive!!
If you consider eliminating water run off and water pollution–considerer that destructive !!
If you consider being a pioneer in the installation of solar energy–consider that destructive !!
If you consider being part of the committee that reduced our HOA fees–consider that destructive !!
OHHHH and Geoff–tell me about your long time family involvement in Mission Viejo . Seems no one has heard about all their positive contributions to Mission Viejo.
Mango. Every so often we receive comments from someone lacking facts. This time its you.
not that Joe needs anyone to come to his defense but I would suggest that you get the police account of the alleged episode before putting mouth in gear.
Geoff.
I think Joe is questioning “your” contributions to our city. He has documented his but you only came on the scene last year. As you surely have discovered I have been active virtually since our cityhood. Even Dan A counted the number of times I have appeared at city council meetings asking questions. I find no written or spoken data relating to our city autographed with your name.
The issue has zero to do with your family who may have been descendents of the 49rs. I would concede that point. The issue that has been raised by you is that Joe is “anti everything.”
Tell us, before 2010 what were you “for” (or against) in Mission Viejo?
Tell me where I can find it as Google and the city web site do not mention you over the past two decades. Check it out folks. Nothing mentioning Geoff Willis’s name in MV prior to 2010.
While we naysayers were never seeking recognition from the city, for 18 months a group of us volunteered to replace SCAT members whose task was to change the Community Sign on La Paz and Marguerite every Monday morning, rain or shine. Mission Viejo had its own Vanna White.
At times there were changes during the week and we immediately changed the messages on the Community Sign as requested by staff. That group of volunteers included Joe H., Cathy S, Frank F, Alan P and myself. Dave Spanjer expressed his gratitute which we never mentioned until now.
As documented Joe served on the Heritage Committee. I volunteered on the MV Activity Committee in 1994. In addition to taking on publicity I assisted in the painting and setting up the Santa House on Chrisanta and La Paz. We do not have to walk around with sandwich signs carrying our resume’s of city contributions. Not every volunteer task needs to be in the spotlight.
One thing that we can agree with on this subject Larry “Not every volunteer task needs to be in the spotlight.” I have been deeply involved in my community for a long time and have made significant donations of both my time and my money. I never do that for credit and won’t start now. My experience is that when folks like Joe H. spend paragraphs trumpeting their accomplishments it is reflective of either deep insecurity or overwhelming self-aggrandizement. I don’t need to participate in that game.
Geoff.
No. You can’t shift gears on a stick shift without stepping on the clutch.
You called activists in Mission Viejo “naysayers.” That forces some of us to respond by documenting some of the contributions we have made to better serve this city.
Another example was our group spending a few months creating a web site with the Mission to retain, gain and sustain business in our city. We met with the city manager and some of his staff and offered total access to our product with no strings attached.
Because of who we were members of the city council did not wish to give us any acknowledgment for that effort that all Juice readers can still view at: http://www.missionviejobusiness.com
That group of Mission Viejo volunteers included Joe H, Cathy S, Alan P, Norm R, Dale T and myself. Most of the city history was penned by myself.
OK. In recent comments I’ve listed some of our voluntary community efforts. What have you contributed to the community?Are you or were you ever a member of a local service club, MV Activities Committee, SCAT, little league, baseball or softball coach? How about a volunteer in the library or at the animal shelter? Anything?
He won’t tell you but I can report that Joe was part of a MVEA team supporting the Relay for Life at Saddleback College.
Our city watchdogs have put their own personal funds into protecting our city values; unlike those of you who went outside the city to obtain special interest money to speak for you.
Wow, that is so obtuse I can’t make heads or tails of it. Who are the “those of you?” What is wrong with going outside the City? What is “special interest money” (does it look different than American money)? Who is speaking for whom?
I take it that you wrote your comment after happy hour?
Geoff. Re: Outside campaign funds
Before I recommend ballot Measures I tell voters to see who is providing the funding. The same applied to the Feb 2010 recall of Lance MacLean.
In that example the sheriffs union dumped over $100,000 defending Lance whose episode at UCI has been well documented. While heavily outspent watchdogs in our city prevailed in the recall of that mayor.
Geoff–
You are running with cover now with that B.S. explanation of your GREAT contributions.
I am still waiting to see those GREAT Geoff Willis contributions !! Remember Geoff it only takes five minutes to be a critic–but a lifetime to be a creator. So, with a little work maybe you will catch up with some of the REAL Mission Viejo contributors.
Obtuse ???? Give me a break !
You know exactly what was meant by outside/special interest money. Like the Real Estate bunch, the Sheriffs Union and so on.
Ohhhh–that is right– maybe you don’t know –short timer !!!
Joe.
did I miss a comment? Is the thread broken?
Where is the list of contributions in our city from Geoff?As Geoff lives in the same track as Frank Ury and connected with him on Measure D perhaps he might verify your role in the all volunteer NOPE organization. Folks. NOPE acronym for No Overhead Powerlines by Edison.
Not only was Joe an active member in that fight he also joined us in traveling to San Francisco where five local residents testified to the PUC to protect those living beneath or near the SC Edison high voltage power lines.
To this date Joe has been the champion promoting the safety of our children to add warning signs in our parks to alert parents of the potential harmful effects of those lines.
Joe or Geoff. After further review I can’t find any listing of what Geoff Willis has done in this community prior to 2010. He did pull papers to run for city council last year and decided not to return them for whatever reason which is not for me to criticize.
Geoff. As a writer on this blog you had better put on your coat of armor with every post. My advise is to verify facts before making accusations against a group rather than one individual if that be the case.
Naysayers. To avoid these lengthy responses from me I would ask that you name the guilty parties and provide actual examples. Professional artists do not paint with a spray gun.
Holtzman promote safety? Read the comment below about his speeding ticket. That man Holtzman is a deranged menace. And the only reason our city is safe is because we have exceptional deputies who work in the city.
Geoff.
A quick look back to your post that reads in part:
“In the past few months, the naysayers have opposed the following as “outrageous” examples of government spending gone wild: 1) City sponsored movie nights, 2) City sponsored crafts classes, 3) City sponsored pancake breakfasts, 4) STATE sponsored job search assistance and 5) staff office furniture. THESE are the concerns that this group cares enough about to sacrifice good electronic ink and space to attack. I am not kidding. ”
At this point you need to put down that shot gun and pick up a rifle. Name names rather than giving Juice readers the impression that there is a group actively engaging in what you allege.
Let me respond to your comment about city sponsored pancake breakfasts. No, not the fact that mayor Leckness threw a pancake in the Murray Center at the recent visit by Debbie Reynolds. As I was not present I cannot report if anyone was hit.
While a member of the MV Rotary Club I did support several pancake breakfasts for special needs children in our city. Every year we held a pancake breakfast at Esperanza Special Ed School off La Paz. We also took a group from there to Chuckie Cheese in Lake Forest but this post is not a place for me to blow a horn.
Your flying blind without verifying the data that someone is whispering in your ear. That being the case let me suggest that you “trust, but verify” before posting future unsubstantiated allegations. Your sources are making you look bad.
Sorry Larry, I cited my source (the Mission Viejo Watchdog Blog), indented the quote and attributed the quote to Mr. Tyler – did you need me to be clearer?
The last time Holtzman got a speeding ticket he was going 12 miles an hour and the officer wrote him up for being 12 miles an hour over the limit. Now how is that even possible? Holtzman took both hands off the steering wheel to take a photo of the officer while he, Holtzman, was making a right-hand turn. The safe rate of speed while making right-hand turns is exactly 0 miles an hour.
That, people of Mission Viejo, is exactly how much Holtzman respects his community. And it is the most accurate assessment of his intelligence and common sense there is. And in the marriage between Gilbert and Holtzman, it is Holtzman that is the “smart” one.
If anyone can define the word “clown” better than that, I’d love to hear it. Holtzman’s and Gilbert’s lies have become boring.
That should read the safe rate of speed while making no-handed right-hand turns is exactly 0
Geoff. This is YOUR opening paragraph.
“Some people say nothing but stupid things and you worry that blogging about them simply gives the undeserving too much attention. A group of Mission Viejo anti-everythings led by Dale Tyler and Joe Holtzman fall into that category. I think that my posts here have consistently demonstrated that I am for a smaller government that taxes the citizenry carefully and only when needed. Apparently, many of the naysayers believe that the sole function of government is to properly repave roads.”
While you name Dale Tyler and Joe Holtzman my question is whether or not you included myself in the anti everything/naysayer group?
I don’t think your naming only two people constitutes a group. Who are the others “led by” Dale and Joe?
Geoff. That’s the first problem I had with your post.
Wow – Geoff Willis is an attorney and he did not even frame a confrontational debate. All he did was post a smattering of disconnected statements and tried to make a story.
Thank you, Larry, for showing this inexperienced and undertrained blogger that truth comes from evidence. As an attorney, you would of thought that he would of known that.
Maybe in his future posts he will take responsibility for the accuracy of his posts instead of writing from his own narrow self-interests.
LBM–You are funny !!
To think of anything intelligent coming from would be a very big stretch. Gilbert and Holtzman have obviously one upped you.
So limp back into your gated community and shut the gate hard.
Accolades, Geoff: Your degenerate companions sure made your boorish post even more trivial than what it already was!!
So what does this say about you? Your attempt to antagonize charitable people attracted your inferior and depraved comrades who probably did not even realize how you set them up to thow the mud balls while you stayed on the sidelines.
Game. Set. Match. The Holtzman Commission!
If Geoff Willis was the last attorney on earth, I would never trust him to defend me – nor hire him to pursue my best interests.
Geoff.
As this thread may soon end I just reread part of your issues and ask “who, what and when” did anyone, “in the past few months” question item #5–staff furniture?
If you make specific allegations like this it would be useful if you could point to the Minutes of a council meeting, a public records request, a blog posted comment or anything in written form. When did this naysayer opposition occur? Oct, Nov or Dec 2010?
Geoff. If you can’t produce supporting documentation your credibility goes out the window.
I think that this is all a bit amusing. In typical fashion, generally hiding under the skirt of anonymity, the naysayers try to hijack the conversation by changing the subject when they are losing, recasting the debate to a format in which they think that they can compete and the beating their fists against the ground like an infant throwing a fit when all else fails. My post was completely factually support citing the source of its material and logically framing the argument. Until their is a intelligent or even congent response, I see no need to respond to this blather.
Geoff, Geoff, Geoff.
Let’s keep it simple. Did you include me in your list of naysayers?As an attorney you surely do understand the concept of providing evidence of your allegations, not just hearsay from others.
No Larry, when I wrote this post I was not lumping you in with Dale Tyler and the rest of his crew and didn’t think that it would be read that way. I think that I have been pretty clear in those times when the two of us disagree and I have not been shy about being specific about our disagreements. I also think that you have made it clear to me that there are times that you and Mr. Tyler or not on the same page.
While I know the term Dale Tyler and “his crew” is a bit amorphous, I have been surprised about how quickly they communicate with each other. Unfortunately the communication is usually not cogent or rational, just quick.