LF Mayor Herzog
For those waiting for the bottom line I’ll post it now. By a 3-2 split vote the Lake Forest city council debated and finally approved placement of a “In God We Trust” display inside the council chambers.
Council member Marcia Rudolph, champion of this agenda item was supported by Kathryn McCullough who seconded her motion. Newest council member Scott Voigts, a former Chapter Leader of the Christian Coalition, provided the critical third vote of acceptance.
Having attended over 100 Orange County city council meetings I am very familiar with “agenda management.” In this example the council action to vote on displaying the national motto was last on the 18 item agenda and was not actually decided until 11 PM last night.
“Agenda management,” controlled by the city manager, city clerk or mayor is where you decide which items follow the routine consent calendar. If you have a desire to limit or curtail public participation you make those of us in the audience wait for hours until we hear the staff presentation and are given time to express our positions, be it in favor of or opposition to the item under review. Mayor Peter Herzog was opposed to this pending action. As such we waited four hours yesterday until this debate was finalized.
I will tip my hat to mayor Herzog. He went out of his way to encourage public participation throughout the evening offering to pull any item for discussion be it the routine consent calendar or any item on the agenda. The Mission Viejo city council majority should take a lesson from Peter’s compliance with the law as to permitting us to participate rather than being forced to jump over hurdles in our city, but I digress.
Prior to council debate we sat and listened for 30 minutes as nine speakers made passionate pleas in support or opposition to this pending vote.
The first speaker, Bruce Gleason from Villa Park, pointed out that 15 percent of Lake Forest residents have no faith. I believe he said he was connected to or simply referencing Americans United for Separation of Church and State.
Joe Cosgrove mentioned a 1970 Court of Appeals case on this very issue where it was acknowledged that this is a patriotic expression and does not present an establishment challenge. He reminded us that in taking the oath we raise our right hand and state “so help me God.”
Gilbert note: While there is debate on the mandatory addition of those four words let me quote the following:
“President-elect Barack Obama has requested that the words “so help me God” be added to the end of the oath of office to be administered by Chief Justice John Roberts on Inauguration Day.”
Lake Forest resident Mark Muller said “it is a Christian symbol” stating that he found it offensive and asked “is this the City Council of Christ?”
He was followed by Carla Westfall, Secretary OC Chapter Americans United for Separation of Church and State. Carla said that the council “was not elected to speak on religious matters.” She called it a “ceremonial phrase” that has been “used and overused and lost it’s meaning.”
Mark Smith, another Lake Forest resident, after displaying a board with currency from the 1950’s without “In God We Trust” asked: “Which fictional God are we being asked to trust? The Easter Bunny, Santa Claus.”
Christopher McCullough told us of his three tours of duty in Vietnam and the reaction by non believers “when bullets started flying” and called out for God.
Vincent Burke, the final local resident to address the council said “I reject this notion that God does not exist” In responding to Mr. Smith’s display he informed us that “in 1865 ‘”In God We Trust” was placed on a two cent piece after the horrific war that split this country.”
Carly Hoff and Greg Golanske, the other two speakers, supported the pending action.
Marsha followed by calling the question which was immediately seconded by Kathryn. When it was his turn to speak newest member Scott Voits read off a list of other Orange County cities that already display the motto. Sensing that council majority dialogue was going against him the mayor offered a second Motion, quickly seconded by the mayor pro tem to expand displays in a “motto wall” to be placed somewhere in the city. His alternate suggestion was seconded by mayor Pro-Tem Mark Tettemer. Peter surprised me by calling for the vote on his counter proposal prior to the original Motion. Failing to get a third vote he finally caved and called the question resulting in the 3-2 vote of approval.
While I will stay point I would be remise not to mention a comment by Peter that warranted follow up. Peter told us that Lake Forest has a motto. It was created soon after cityhood. Hmm. Why isn’t that stealth motto on display now?
I am proud of the actions of the majority of my city council members last night. All I can say is “It’s about time!”. I don’t think this will be a distraction and the controversy should blow over in the next few weeks. The real question here is, will the Mayor and Pro-Tem recognize that the newest council member is not like the one he replaced? There was a reason the voters of Lake Forest made the newest council member the top vote getter. They knew what they would get from him if he were elected and he seems to be doing exactly what I expected he would. If they can’t recognize change has come they are more politically naive than I ever would imagine and it will be a long and interesting couple of years until the next election.
Dwight.
While the new class of council members travel to SAC today I will see and report on reactions they get from their peers around the state.
Hi Larry,
I’m actually other here as well. Here on business and meeting with electeds as well. Saw Rhonda last night followed by an brief encounter with Moonbeam. After 36 hours in town, I’m ready to get out of here.
Dwight
The question was raised, which god are we talking about? I bet with these folks it’s the “prosperity” characters on TBN etc., in other words, a white male Republican god.
This is absurd, and nothing but a treat handed out to the right wing electorate.
Bravo to Marcia Rudolph for continuing to press this important issue, and to Kathryn McCullough and newly elected Scott Voigts for endorsing our great national motto (Mr. President, it is, in fact “In God We Trust” since you must have missed that part of civics class). It’s a shame it took this long. It’s even more of a shame that Peter Herzog and Mark Tettemer would not support something as simple as placing our national motto within the Council chambers. I’m glad Lake Forest has chosen to join its neighbor, Mission Viejo, and over a dozen other Orange County cities who are proud to display the motto.
Who said it was our “national motto”? it was stuck on money in the 1950’s as a result of McCarthyism.
Actually Congress enacted and Eisenhower signed into law a measure that made it our national motto. This may not matter to you since you don’t like to let facts get in your way.
I couldn’t have said it better Geoff – dang those facts.
If I wanted to live in a theocracy, I’d move to Iran.
Sounds good to us Harvey, move away.
It looks like Rapscalion might be looking for a new place to live as well since he is so averse to our national motto.
Why don’t you leave? And take your fundamentalism with you.
Harvey.
Are you referring to president Obama?
He requested those four words be added as he took his oath of office.
Larry,
As I’ve told you many times, facts don’t matter to liberals.
Obama asked that “in god we trust” be “added” to his oath? Not exactly.
Rap.
While this is not the same source I referenced before making that comment the message is the same. You are free to refute it so long as you can back it up.
——————————————————————————–
January 9, 2009 3:40PM
Obama Asks Court to Include ‘So help me God’ at Inauguration
Sarah Pulliam Bailey
President-elect Barack Obama asked that the words “so help me God” be added to the end of the oath of office at the Inauguration, according to CNN.
CNN reports that the request was confirmed by an affidavit filed today by Supreme Court Chief Justice John Roberts’ court counselor. Roberts said he would abide by Obama’s wishes.
The phrase has been a long-held tradition but is being challenged by an atheist who wants it removed.
You’re right Rapscalion, he actually requested “so help me God” be added to the end of his oath:
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/01/09/obama-to-asked-to-say-so-help-me-god-at-swearing-in/
Big difference there, right?
It is a huge difference–if he wants to say it for himself, fine.
But it’s another thing to presume that “we” the public “trust in god.” That’s just absurd. Maybe you trust in a mythical being, but please don;t put the onus on the rest of us.
Harvey.
While I didn’t vote for president Obama I, like millions of conservatives, accept that outcome and are not packing to leave the country.
However, as we aim to please our readers, should you plan to leave give me a call and we will help you pack.
You missed the “if”–It’s fine here without the slavish fundies. I’d be glad to help you out of here, though, if you take the self righteous bible thumpers with you.
Oh, wonderful. Another OC city government choosing to disrespect & marginalize nonreligious people, atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, the many Christians like me that feel religion and government shouldn’t mix, etc. etc. And no doubt to score some political points as usual.
Well, let’s just avoid this subject when I see you guys this weekend, Newbie. It really gets my goat. But I’ve written about it enough on this blog.
http://www.orangejuiceblog.com/2009/11/are-our-brains-just-built-differently/
http://www.orangejuiceblog.com/2008/04/jill-and-debbie-shine-in-hb-god-imbroglio/
http://www.orangejuiceblog.com/2008/06/fountain-valley-patriots-hold-the-line-against-theocracy/
Vern,
I’m glad you’re not moving to Iran with Harvey until after I’ve had the pleasure of hearing you in action.
Wait, what’d I miss? I thought Iran was the sort of theocracy you fellas were emulating!
Vern, your opinion on mixing of religion and politics is really not the point. The United States Constitution simply prohibits congress taking action to “establish” a religion, that is all. In 1956 congress adopted “in God we trust” as the official national motto of the United States and Eisenhower signed into law a measure that required the motto to be printed on all currency.
Folks like you have challenged this motto and its use in our court system and they have all been rebuffed. That bastion of conservatism, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals (widely recognized as the most liberal, and most reversed, or all of the Courts of Appeals) found the adoption and use of the motto by government constitutional in Aranow v. United States when it said “It is quite obvious that the national motto and the slogan on coinage and currency ‘In God We Trust’ has nothing whatsoever to do with the establishment of religion. Its use is of patriotic or ceremonial character and bears no true resemblance to a governmental sponsorship of a religious exercise.”
The United States Supreme Court has supported this position. In Zorach v. Clauson, the Supreme Court has also held that the nation’s “institutions presuppose a Supreme Being” and that government recognition of God does not constitute the establishment of such a state church as the Constitution’s authors intended to prohibit.
While many may think that the constitution protects them from ideas that they don’t like, it doesn’t. It allows us to wallow in the quagmire of disagreement and loud discourse.
I applaud the action of the Lake Forest City Council and they find themselves in a position consistent with some of the great judicial minds of our time.
Glanced at your comment, I’ll read it more later today – but what jumped out was that we should be “allowed to wallow in the quagmire of disagreement and loud discourse.”
THat’s EXACTLY what I agree with, and exactly what I think gets destroyed, when some majority gangs up and says “Hey, we rule this chamber.” Which is how that kind of placard looks.
I never said it’s TECHNICALLY against the Constitution. But I think politicians of good will should vote AGAINST it.
How does Saturday 7pm at the Murray Center sound?
This is what I don’t get!
It is not,” in the Catholic Church we trust”; it is, “in God we trust”. So it is not one religion and not one God!
I really don’t understand the stupidity of liberals?
What on earth did that mean?
It means that the plague is not advocating for one particular church!
Separation of church and state means that the founders did not want any religious group (as it was in England) dictating or having the control to manipulate the people’s business! Other words they are a lot of crazy religions out there ie.. Islam, that would, if allowed to involve itself in Government, would be a complete disaster for women and for freedom!
I believe in God, but not one church or one religion!
Liberals have twisted this very important rule and make it an attack on God. An attack on morality and civility!
What makes Islam crazy, and Catholicism, for example, not? Now there’s a group that just loves to dictate the peoples’ business.
Where do you start?
Were there are different problems with the Catholic Church, I don’t think they have stoned, buried alive, or beheaded anyone lately…. And in MOST islamic countries this is like bowling!
I think pushing the anti-abortion agenda is a titch different than wanting to allow men to kill their wives or sisters as an honor killing as a matter of a man’s right!
The Catholic Church is an annoyance to me because the institution is full of left wing nuts. Islam is just full of nuts that are on a rampage of killing, stoning, burning and out and out craziness!
Do I respect Muslims, yes, if they aren’t trying to burn, stone, or kill me! And the tent sh*& has to go!
Good to see you in Lake Forest last night, Larry! If readers want more on what happened: http://lakeforest-ca.patch.com/articles/passions-flare-as-council-votes-for-in-god-we-trust-display
Thanks. Spencer.
Felt somewhat like Mission Viejo last night. With the change on the council nothing will be predictable
PS Kudos to the two patriots who stood against this retreat into medievalism – Mayor Herzog and Pro-tem Tettemer. I would have liked to hear more of their reasoning in your article, Larry.
Notice that there’s no mention here of what this symbolic alignment of the City of Lake Forest with the deity is going to cost the taxpayers.
I feel sorry for Herzog and Tettemer, who have to deal with the new council majority coalition of the bag lady, the church lady and the creepy Tea Party guy. I’ll keep them in my prayers.
Arthur,
I don’t quite understand your vague post. What “cost” are you referring to?
Arthur.
While we don’t permit personal attacks on this blog, and whereas none of the three LF council members will see your comment, let me simply say that I will forgive your remarks on their behalf.
I can tell you that Scott Voigts is a VP of the CRA. He is not a Tea Party member. But don’t let the truth get in your way as you smear the Lake Forest believers.