It was like a kick in the groin, when after the euphoric “third item of old business” in Tuesday’s Costa Mesa City Council meeting – with all members of the council, Republican and Democrat, and evidently every member of the sizable enthusiastic audience UNIFIED in determination to protect the OC Fair from theft and rape by shady forces – when after THAT, we had to grit our teeth and split again into fiercely opposing camps for the dependably DIVISIVE wedge issue – sticking the motto “In God We Trust” up on Council walls. As proposed this time by Fundamentalist Christianist Councilwoman Wendy Leece, Costa Mesa is actually going to display the motto up on the wall behind the council dais, so you can look at it the whole time you’re speaking to them. (My Christian Sale-Derailing ally Greg Ridge, while supporting the measure, suggested that the motto instead be facing the council, so that instead of giving the public the sense that “God backs everything we the council do,” the council can instead be reminded to behave in a Godly way. I countered that even that is unfair to present or future councilmembers who may not be “believers.”)
One new particularly offensive twist the Trusters are using is to trot out four aged military veterans in support of the measure – one from each branch of the Armed Forces, in their bright shiny uniforms, who unmistakeably speak and act as though their service to the country somehow makes them more qualified than the rest of us to say what is patriotic and American. As you may imagine, we were treated to (among a dozen other hoary and irrelevant cliches) “There are no atheists in foxholes.” Sir, thank you for your service, but council chambers is NOT A FOXHOLE. The first distinguished old coot arrogantly huffed that none of the opponents of the measure had probably ever served in the military. WRONG, pal. As it turned out, we had a Vietnam-era Marine and a Korean War vet on our side, as well as the proud son of a WWII fighter pilot, none of whom probably would have mentioned their service if it weren’t for this ancient prick’s provocation. And OUR vets emphasized that the oath they had taken was to protect the CONSTITUTION, not religion.
Okay, wait, I’m still getting to my main point, as suggested in my title. I don’t want to re-argue the pros and cons of putting up religious slogans in council chambers, an issue I railed against at length and in detail last year when this rough beast slouched through Huntington Beach and Fountain Valley.
The disturbing point I’m making, or the question I have, occurred to me and Rich Gillock (the Vietnam-vet Marine) as we left the meeting, shaken and sad: We were both marvelling how, even though the issue invariably divides people into two very adamant sides, those who oppose the issue lament its divisiveness, while those who support it always insist that it’s “unifying,” and that people who don’t like the display just don’t have to look at it. They seem serious: they really don’t see divisiveness while they pursue divisiveness doggedly. Are their brains just built differently from ours? Why do WE think of and empathize with all the citizens who are left out and alienated by public displays of monotheistic religion, while THEY just assume that all Americans either think and feel like they do, or should and could. Are Trusters simply born without empathy?
And it’s usually a pretty even division pro and con with this thing. I know, I know, if you survey the public, the vast majority will say they’ve got no problem with displaying “In God We Trust” wherever, they think , sure, it sounds nice; but the fact is they don’t care much and they’ve been fine for decades WITHOUT a religious slogan displayed in their temples of democracy. The folks who feel strongly enough to speak out about it one way or the other are always evenly divided. (Sigh … divided.)
Of course, sadly, it’s always a losing issue for an Orange County politician in this churchy age to vote against the Trusters: It cost Gus Ayer re-election last year to the Fountain Valley City Council, and probably hurt Debbie Cook in her congressional run (although truly Christian anti-Truster Jill Hardy windsurfed to re-election.) The one Democrat in Costa Mesa had been counselled by friends to just smile and go along last night rather than commit political suicide, so the vote was unanimously in favor. (For the record I have no idea if Katrina Foley’s vote was reluctant or not; she made no comment.)
And that’s what this really is at root, even if some sincere and simple people are involved: an electoral strategy to mobilize religious congregations for or against political candidates. And this is what distressed HB Councilwoman Jill Hardy so badly last year – seeing her beloved God “dragged through the mud” – (her words to me) – for political purposes. What a depressing coda to an otherwise wonderful city council meeting.
I think our brains ARE built differently, and I know our backgrounds and circumstances are unique. Both may contribute to why people arrive at drastically different conclusions to the same problem. That is why living in America, with our freedom of speech to voice our opinions is as important as the way we collectively decide an issue by majority vote.
The Costa Mesa City Council represents its citizens on the issue of “In God We Trust”. The majority of us are Christians …. the VAST majority believe and trust in God. You, Vern Nelson, are in a very small minority who have chosen to be an atheist, and are in an even smaller group yet whose insensitivity towards others demands we all abide by your opinion and beliefs.
The sign is a reminder that while we differ on many little things in the Council Chambers, it is good to be reminded that almost all of us are united in believing in God. I have a difficult time understanding why you find that so offensive. But then, I guess brains can be wired differently. I’m just glad mine is wired as it is.
Well, you’ve got me wrong, Jean, as someone might after a quick and cursory reading (and I also didn’t get into too much detail because I wrote so much about this last year.) But since you make assumptions, I need to tell you that I’m NOT an atheist. I AM A CHRISTIAN. Just like HB Councilwoman Jill Hardy whom you read about if you got to the last paragraph, and just like many of the other folks who object to the display of religious mottos in a place of democracy.
We just also firmly believe that American democracy is not all about the majority trampling on minorities; and that especially a place like City Hall should make the extra effort to be open to all Americans, including agnostics, atheists, Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, Wiccans, and whatever.
This is what I was trying to get across in my satirical presentation Tuesday night when I proposed putting up a companion plaque reading “White People Are Special.” As I sarcastically protested, the majority of us are white, it doesn’t say anything bad about black brown or yellow people, and folks who aren’t white can just avert their eyes from it when they come to council chambers. Of course this idea is offensive and absurd (especially with my depictions of special white people Edgar Winter, Phil Donahue, Margaret Thatcher and Florence Henderson) but how is it very different?
To assume that someone who objects to religious displays in city halls must be an atheist is just as wrong as assuming I’m gay (or want to get married) just because I support the right of gays to marry; or that I’m a stoner just because I believe pot should be legalized. (Now that I think of it, I’m spending all my time lately trying to save the Fair and I hardly even go there.) It’s all about empathy really and a belief in American democracy and civil liberties, which is not at all incompatible with being a Christian. Quite the opposite!
So when I provocatively ask if our brains are built differently – which may be a slur thrown in frustration, or may be the awful truth – I’m not asking that about “Christians” but about folks who think all Americans should either be just like them or SUCK IT UP.
You never hear guys like Vern complaining after natural disasters or terrorist attacks like 9-11 when public officials lead public prayers or use the name of God to ask for help/comfort of victims. I admire the Costa Mesa Council for doing what they believe is their right as Americans. God Bless Costa Mesa and God Bless America!
“Guys like Vern,” huh? Are we in a continuous natural disaster now, #3? And #1, this “conclusion” was a solution to WHAT “problem?”
In God We Trust appears above the rostrum in Congress. I’m glad it does.
Vern, You are absolutely correct about certain factions employing religion in order to win a voter block. Bush did this in office (see Tempting Faith, a book by David Kuo, #2 in faith based initiative who blew the whistle on the hypocrisy!) And C Street scandals are shaking the hill – finally! And a few months ago, some Muslim friends, activists and myself protested at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa for hosting General Jerry “Warrior of God” Boykin who advocates using American Christian military might to wipe out Muslims.
This is really Sinclair Lewis’s quote come true – “When fascism comes to America it will be waving a flag and carrying a cross”. We need to insist there be separation of church and state. If we have a catastrophe where people need comfort, why not direct people to their local churches? Or use god generically, as we DO live in a multicultural country.
Well, I just had to grumble about this; I don’t want to spend all day thinking about it, I’d rather think about happy things. Like saving the fair. So I won’t be commenting any more on this thread unless someone says something REALLY outrageous.
Thank you Vern. Enough said.
If I don’t see you beforehand Have a Blessed Thanksgiving holiday!
Your Brother Larry
Happy Thanksgiving Juice Brother. We all have a lot to be grateful for.
In God we trust is also on our money, but it is not accompianed by other symbols associated with a particular religion.
What would be the response if some wished to put up a plack that said in the Great Spirit we trust, in Allah we trust, in Yahway we trust, in Budda we trust etc,
It all depends upon your perspective, where, how and in what faith you were raised.
I have not problem with any of the above because My God, I was raised Christian and still am is big enough to go around. He told me not to judge others lest I be judged.
So I would have voted yes also, but I would also support other faiths wishing to put up placks that reflect thier beliefs since I am told not to judge others.
…but I would also support other faiths wishing to put up placks that reflect thier beliefs since I am told not to judge others.
And end up having the whole place look like the back of a freakin’ hippie’s van.
(Sorry can’t help it, I must be procrastinating on something important.)
A temporary condition to be sure, Everyone would likely then agree it would all need to be removed. Sometimes you need to go around the whole circle to get to the solution.
Well okay, you lose one, you win one..
Americans United (For Separation of Church and State) Lauds Senate Vote Confirming David Hamilton To Federal Appeals Court
Church-State Watchdog Group Pleased At Failure Of Religious Right Efforts To Block Nominee
November 19, 2009
The U.S. Senate did the right thing today by confirming David Hamilton to the 7th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, says Americans United for Separation of Church and State.
The action came despite Religious Right-led demands that the Senate not even hold a vote on Hamilton. The effort failed, and Hamilton was confirmed by a 59-39 vote.
“The Religious Right tried to keep a qualified judge off the appeals court, and two words describe the result: epic fail,” said the Rev. Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United.
Lynn added, “During the presidency of George W. Bush, Religious Right groups complained when judicial nominees did not receive prompt votes in the Senate – yet they tried to do the same thing to Judge Hamilton. The rank hypocrisy of these groups is breathtaking, and I’m glad their tactics didn’t work.”
Who are the patriots? Those who place a deity above their country, or those who place their country above all?
I have to say I really LOVE the idea of putting that motto on the back wall of the council chamber so the pols can look at it as they wheel and deal, backstab, play partisan politics, etc., etc., etc.
Of course an Angry God might not like the obvious blasphemy.
Of course an Angry God might not like the obvious blasphemy.
I’m thinkin’, Zenger (between you & me) he just may SMITE ’em?
The only God most local elected officials worship is the God of unabridged greed!
And which God was Republican Mike Duvall trusting while he was dripping his way through Sacramento?
God Bless you all as we celebrate the CHRISTmas season.
I can understand why only 20% of Americans consider themselves liberals.
Thank God!
It seems 100% ridiculous to me to have such a nonsense slogan up, but it somehow seems to make people happy.
I’m not sure it’s worth the effort to fight it, as there’s no logic behind the fairy tales, so how can we use logic to argue against it?
It seems 100% ridiculous to me to have such a nonsense slogan up, but it somehow seems to make people happy.
Do you think all the religous slogans Muslims come up with are nonsense? I bet not!
I’m not sure it’s worth the effort to fight it, as there’s no logic behind the fairy tales, so how can we use logic to argue against it?
If your so logical, explain the fact that millions of people believe it the SLOGAN, “in God we trust”, and you don’t? Are you some how more logical than million of your fellow humans?
I would say satistically speaking, if millions vs you. logically speaking you might be wrong!
I believe in GOD, what ever he/it might be, because logic dictates that events needs a catalist.
The U.S. Senate did the right thing today by confirming David Hamilton to the 7th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, says Americans United for Separation of Church and State.
Separation of church and state, does not mean separation of GOD and state. Churches are human institutions and therefore have the potential for corruption. IE.. The Catholic Church in America, with its new social advocation for “social justice’.
Love you, Vern. Get a job!
Yes, I am more logical than you (and millions of other people) because I do not believe in imaginary beings.
I don’t see any problem with “In God We Trust” as long as God is’nt indentified. He could be Jesus, Budda, Norm Chow or Jerry Garcia.
Whats more curious, is that a city like Costa Mesa would spend the time on this while the huge money maker is being stolen from them, the state is stripping them of money, and it’s property tax revenue is is SINKING.
WTF.? Maybe these council members ought to try praying to some GOD. Because they’re not doing it on their own.
DJ
Maybe these council members ought to try praying to some GOD. Because they’re not doing it on their own.
DJ
LOL! You nailed that one, Dj 😉
#1 Jean says;
“(Atheists) are in an even smaller group yet whose insensitivity towards others demands we all abide by your opinion and beliefs.”
Jean’s a typical whiny christian, trying to shove her religion down everyone else’s throat while simultaneously crying about how persecuted she is. Christians/hypocrites like Jean have NO idea, what it is like to be a non-christian in this country, it is akin to the whiny white-boys crying about discrimination.
In God We Trust
Cool saying.
Christians/hypocrites like Jean have NO idea, what it is like to be a non-christian in this country, it is akin to the whiny white-boys crying about discrimination.
LOL exactly, as a white boy Christian myself it’s both comical and embarrassing to see the boundless self-pity and persecution complex many whites, males, and Christians exhibit as they look out at an expanding and diverse world. I’m gonna eventually do a piece on that.
Christians/hypocrites like Jean have NO idea, what it is like to be a non-christian in this country, it is akin to the whiny white-boys crying about discrimination.
Just a observation! I see the whiny white boys and girls as liberals who can’t get out of the 60’s..ie. Aryes,pelosi, ect… All whiny about the fact that whites are somehow more gifted than anyother race and therefore need to give everyother race a head start. Discrimation is the favorite word of liberal’s.
White liberals hate christanity, because they hate everything that this country stands for. The fact that christanity is the major religion, just rubs them the wrong way. Liberals want the minority to rule and the majority to shutup!
If it is a toss up between here and Iraq, don’t you think that muslim’s would choose America? Just as hundards of religions have come here for reglious freedoms, encluding myself. I would say, YOU, don’t know what you are talking about, per usual!
Yes, I am more logical than you (and millions of other people) because I do not believe in imaginary beings.
Keep dreaming, Tinker Bell!
Vern, I just saw you on the replay of the CM council meeting. Priceless. Edgar Winter! You brilliantly made the point, which of course fell upon deaf ears. I can’t believe you were able to do that with a straight face. Wish I had been there.
No, Vern, their brains are not built differently, they are just lazy (non) thinkers who prefer being told what to do to thinking for themselves. If one can decipher the incoherent, weak arguments for placing “In God We Trust” in a forum for open democratic discourse and decision making one finds an ultimate adherence to blind belief over reasoned argument. How does one characterize a willingness to sacrifice the Constitution of the United States on the altar of religion? Unpatriotic is the best word I can think of, and that goes for every city council member who voted for this abomination.
Mr. Leslie,
The constitution itself was founded by men who had a stong belief in GOD!
The very foundtion of this country is founded on the principles of christanity.
All men are created equal in the eyes of god!
What you see as a obomination, most Americans see as, “American values”.
Really, if you don’t like living in a christan country and you find is so offense to have a plaque stating,” In God we trust”, maybe you need to move to China!
What is abominal is the fact that you think “In God we trust”, is an abomination.
I myself do not consider myself a christan, but i do believe in God!
Matt, you are going to be real sorry you ever locked intellectual horns with Michelle Quinn.
Thank you.
Never mind my horns, you should see my tail!
Sorry God, just a wee joke:)
A few wee spelling errors: Christian, foundation, and if i missed any sue me!
The Holy Bible is a good story if you can get past the first five pages but for me I like Moby Dick and Tom Sawyer and other nice fiction novels. LOL!
Mipio,
Moby dick is about a whale, and tom sawyer is about a boy being a boy. The bible is about a man that lived to help others and suffered and died by nailing him to a cross, because he believed in the good of humanity.
Maybe you need to get though the first five pages. I do agree that moby dick is not so complicated!