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Well, I was crowing a little too soon about the polls showing the mean-spirited and un-American Proposition 8, which should be a relic of another century, going down in flames like Sodom and Gomorrah themselves. Now it seems as though a mighty financial tsunami coming from a few big conservative, homophobic religions (chief among them the Mormons who are managing to stay under the public’s radar), in league with cynical Republican operatives, has managed – at least temporarily – to sway public opinion to the bigoted side. Their chief tool has been a certain obnoxious, falsehood-riddled commercial which I’m sure you’ve seen on TV and heard on the radio, beginning and ending with a brazenly in-your-face Gavin Newsom exulting, “Whether ya like it or not!”
Well, I was all ready to debunk the five lies in the commercial, but thank God for whoever made this video, it’s already very well handled here (although I wish some sad hippie weren’t singing while we try to read!)
I also really like the way the good NO folks frame the issue in THIS ad, which will hopefully be getting a lot of play, especially if you can go the extra mile and donate at this link: https://secure.ga4.org/01/stopthelies/nT1NiQS9qgiKD?
Vern,
The polls are probably wrong anyway, look at the last few presidential elections as an example.
I’m pro legal union or civil union betwen same sex couples ,with the same rights and obligations as a heterosexual couples. My preference and believe is to specifically call “marriage” to the legal union between man and woman.
Vote YES on proposition 8!!!
Well there are over a hundred rights that same sex couples don’t get under civil unions that you get under marriage, Mary, so with your capricious little “preference and believe,” you are taking away their rights. Over a word, Mary? Don’t vote with Mary, you guys.
See Vern, we do sometimes agree on things.
I still believe in equal rights under the law.
I only rip you a new (one [oops]) when I think your wrong, on this however we do fully agree!
I know, Carl, I know. If we never EVER agreed… then I’d probably give up on you. 🙂
Mary –
You and I have the same position on the issue, except that I don’t believe in taking away rights once they’ve been fought for and won. I also don’t believe in enshrining discrimination into our constitution. I also believe that a Yes vote on Prop 8 is actually a vote to make it harder to add the legal protections in question to the current civil union laws if it passes, and even though the Yes on 8 folks have greatly exaggerated the potential outcomes of gay marriage to serve their needs (the sky is falling! the sky is falling!), the No people haven’t stooped to those levels.
Prop 8 is leading in the polls because, as usual, when ‘conservatives’ want to roll back social progress, they just lie through their teeth. The Dems aren’t perfect, but I do find them more trustworthy on social issues (with a few exceptions I admit) as I’ve said before on other threads.
You and I have the same gripe with same-sex marriage, but you’re voting yes and I’m voting no. Please, seriously consider joining me.
SMS
Vern says,
“over a hundred rights that same sex couples don’t get under civil unions that you get under marriage,”
I didn’t know that, Vern, can you list them here. Or post a link to where that information is located.
Thanks to Carl, he looked that up a while back and wrote about it in comments on another Prop 8-related post. Lemme see…
Oh first this was Carl to MARY actually, on Sept. 26 (she must not have read it)
Mary,
You said, “Right now gays have all the same rights as hetros under the domestic partnership law.”
That is patently not true. Power of attorney is not the same as next of kin rights when it comes to dealing with health care issues, that is a fact! Cohabitation is not the same with regard to jointly owned property and survivors rights and must go through probate. Willing firearms to your partner upon death would require that all of them be re-dros’ed, taxes and fees paid, to legally comply with the law. Whereas a husband and wife it does not.
I know there was more somewhere…
Oh here’s where I got it! http://www.theliberaloc.com/2008/08/13/action-alert-tell-the-right-wing-consultants-no-to-prop-8/#comment-24243
D’anconia said “Gay couples have been allowed to engage in a civil union for years, with the same civil rights and benefits as most other married couples”
and Dan C. said “You would be completly wrong; there are about 1500 rights associated with Marriage that are not granted under CUs.”
I hope Dan wasn’t just making that up… when I get home I’ll try to find more details of what all those rights are, 1500 does sound like a lot of rights!
and then of course there was this, as far as how the difference actually impacts real people, MARY:
http://www.theliberaloc.com/2008/08/13/action-alert-tell-the-right-wing-consultants-no-to-prop-8/#comment-24253
Richard said: “Just for the record, here in a northern California county, on January 27th, my beloved husband died. We were registered Domestic Partners with the Secretary of State. Had been since 2001. But Domestic Partners really is 2nd class – no it really is no class here.
He died at home so the Deputy Sheriff acted as Coroner. He refused to recognize me as next of kin. He insisted we call a blood relative in New York State to choose a funeral home etc. He wanted to remove all of my beloved’s possesions from our home and ship them back East … including his wedding ring. It was a Sunday night so I could not get the County judge or attorney to set things right (as I did on Monday) I had to lie and weasle to keep our stuff in our home. Because I did not count at all. Our family did not count. We were 2nd class – no class. Because we were not married.
Don’t tell me that Domestic Partnership is just as good as marriage. And don’t tell me that I was not married in my heart AND in my church to my husband. The Court just recognized what is a fact … he and I were married … and it is a civil right.
You have no idea how much it hurt … still hurts … that in 2008, in California, my family was ignored when I needed it to be recognized the most.
I’ll get back with more details of how many rights etc. but it’s certainly not equal like Mary pretends, and that’s what caused the Court’s ruling.
Here are 5 differences between marriage and civil unions off the top of my head.
– Couples in domestic partnerships are not allowed to file joint tax returns at the federal level. This right is reserved for MARRIED couples.
– Health benefits for a same gender partner are taxed as income even for those who are in civil unions. Medical/Dental/Vision coverage for a spouse is tax-exempt for MARRIED couples.
– Spouses who are MARRIED cannot be forced to testify against each other in Federal Court cases. Those who are in DPs/CUs are not afforded this right.
– Social Security spousal survivor and death benefits are extended only to MARRIED couple. If you’re in a Civil Union or Domestic Partnership, you’re out of luck.
– Couples who are MARRIED have their MARRIAGE recognized in all 50 states and US territories. Those in CUs/DPs must check local law and often have to submit a new contract when moving from one state to another.
In short, marriage in our country is both a civil contract and (for many) a religious sacrament. Nobody is forcing religious groups to perform or recognize same gender couples. But CIVIL marriage – the government contract – should be a right given equally to all Californians.
An exhaustive list of the rights that come with marriage (prepared by the General Accounting Office of the Federal government in 2004) can be found at http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d04353r.pdf. And I can add another to it: Joe and I hyphenated our surnames when we got married. We requested passports with our new name, and in accordance with the Department of State website, submitted copies of our marriage license showing the new name. Our requests were rejected with a quote from the “Defense of Marriage” act that says the Federal government will not recognize same-gender marriages. They graciously gave us the option of proving that we had been using the name for at least five years, or of getting a court order changing our names. (They kept the $150 fee, however.) Straight couples get legal name changes with their license– we got taken for a ride.
That’s some great information F&E!
Paul,
Thank you for joining the discussion and adding greatly to it! Always glad to see your participation and I hope that you will continue to do so. Your voice would add greatly around here. While we may not always agree on issues your sane and reasoned tone is always welcome to any discussion.
Looking over the info on federal laws provided by Paul, It appears that Prop 8 will not change anything if it is passed, and will not change anything if it does not get passed. State law still does not over ride federal laws on the same subject matter.
I think I will not vote on Prop 8, and lets others decide that one. (I would vote yes on 8, so this is the best compromise I can do.)
Cook, at least thanks for coming halfway, but what are you talking about? With Prop 8, same-sex couples will no longer be able to be legally married. What’s this “federal laws” override? Haven’t been to Paul’s link yet, but everything Carl, F&E, and Paul described are real. Real rights that same-sex couples enjoy RIGHT NOW if they get married, but will be taken away from them if Mary has her way and Prop 8 passes.
Mary, are you still there, or was this a hit-and-run? I think you can see now that your comment didn’t make any sense, and if you vote yes on 8 you will be taking away a LOT of rights from same-sex couples. Just for a word that has sentimental meaning to you, or what?
Carl, thank you for the kind words. 🙂 You are correct that Prop 8’s failure would not affect anything on a federal level: my marriage would still not be recognized, Joe would still be denied spousal rights to my Social Security benefits, and we still take a hit on our income tax (and when we sell our home, we will not be able to shelter the capital gains as opposite-gender spouses do). Its passage, though, would have significant adverse impacts on us and the thousands of other couples who have benefited from the California Supreme Court’s recognition that separate but equal (domestic partnerships, in other words) is not equal. I do, very much, appreciate your decision to withhold your approval and vote from Prop 8… if I can’t get a No I’ll certainly take an Abstain. 🙂
Let me make a few other comments while I’m at it: marriage and family law has traditionally been the purview of the several States. While the Federal Supreme Court has sometimes taken jurisdiction (notably Loving v Virginia, 1967, and Lawrence v Texas, 2003), for the most part the Federal government has not intervened. The states, for the most part, (I would say “Always”, but I’ve learned that the minute I use that word, someone will find the exception) have recognized the acts and rulings of the other states: even if California will not issue a marriage license to first cousins, it will recognize their marriage license from Texas. If Oregon grants divorce and alimony, Arkansas will enforce the payments. This is in accordance with the Full Faith and Credit Clause (Article IV of the Federal Constitution), which *requires* each state to respect the “public acts, records, and judicial rulings” of other states.
Now, the “Defense of Marriage” act directs the Federal Government to ignore some of the public acts –the issuance of marriage licenses– by three of the States, and permits any State that chooses to ignore them to do so. DOMA violates the Constitution, and I suspect that we will see it overturned in a few more years.
Back to our principal subject: Prop 8. I implore everyone reading these words to give serious thought to voting NO on this proposition. If anyone has questions about its implications or impacts on freedom of religion, freedom of speech, or straight people’s marriages, I’m more than happy to discuss them. 🙂
Paul
Looks like I conflated Carl and Cook in my last post… sorry about that.
no problem Paul 😉
Thank you for posting this! I love seeing positive reports on the No on 8 side, it’s very refreshing. I’ve had enough of that evil and hate induced side of Yes on 8, man isn’t that the most bizarre thing you’ve ever seen? I cringe when I see that yes on 8 and protect marriage crap in my face. It’s like a demon or the devil or something, very weird.