Over the past few weeks the OC Register’s local newspaper, the Saddleback Valley News, started a new series covering two Mission Viejo blog sites which represent an alternative method for residents to become informed on city activities and misdeeds.
In today’s issue the city council fired back. Each of the five council members were asked about their opinion of these two local blogs. This series was triggered by a specific blog story relating to the grand opening of the expanded community center in which the city purchased hundreds of custom easels to display photos representing the history of our community. The blog was contacted by local resident Lisa De-Paul Snyder after she found hundreds of these easels in a trash heap.
The cover page of today’s issue includes a photo which brings back memories of our former Committee For Integrity in Government (CIG). The photo is of two members holding picket signs protesting city’s out of control expenditures. What’s the connection you might ask? Both of the men who created the local blogs in this dispute were active participants in CIG at that time. Through our mutual efforts, in 2002, we soundly defeated both our mayor and vice mayor in that same election and worked around the clock to replace them with Lance MacLean and Trish Kelley, both of whom are serving today. We also assisted Councilman John Paul Ledesma get reelected as part of operation clean sweep.
It’s OK to walk precincts, donate time and money, design and distribute campaign flyers and yard signs, draft candidate statement and speeches, give (and obtain) endorsements, hold fundraiser coffee’s on their behalf and stand on street corners holding their signs. Larry, that’s old news. We no longer require your services. Furthermore, we are not happy when you write blog stories about our actions on the council. How dare you.
If you recall I recently blogged about an email from an upper City of Mission Viejo manager to his staff. To paraphrase: The memo instructs them that should a council member ask them any questions they are to immediately report that contact to their superiors so that we are all on the same page. Same page or damage control? The same applies to the city council reaction. Yes, we should ask questions but when you take the time to address them at the podium under Public Comments and they ignore your plea you eventually lose the confidence and trust in your elected officials. The best way to get their attention is to get it in print be it Letters to the Editor or the latest in the world of communication, the local blogs. Before we had bloggers, and before the sun would rise over Saddleback Mountain, the council members would race out to their driveway to see if they are named in today’s paper. Now all you need do is turn on your computer.
As to the blog’s themselves. If your data is out in left field most readers will simply ignore a biased article. But to tell us that we need to contact them every time for an explanation as to why hundreds of easels are found in a dump speaks for itself. The deed was done.
While the Orange Juice and my posts were not referenced in this series, the same guidelines apply for most blogs. Be as factual as possible and do not engage in personal attacks. The same applies to those wishing to comment on our posts.
To have us contact them after the event accomplishes what? This is the same City Council that removed transparency where we previously had the right to pull routine Consent Calendar items off the Agenda for discussion. In fact that was one of my requests to the mayor in helping her get elected in 2002. At that time the vote was 5-0 in support of that change. Now we must either address the issue under Public Comments or contact a council member, give them a heads up on our reason for the request, and hope they will pull the item on our behalf. It’s like playing poker with all your cards face up.
Back to the Register story. Council Member Lance MacLean. “There is a frustration that, not everything that is written in a blog, isn’t necessarily true or accurate, and when people read the blogs they assume the accuracy. There is a small element of fact and a whole bunch of opinion and hyperbole.”
Gilbert comment to Lance. Blogs are intended to offer opinions on government actions. When you approve 13 Change Orders on the expansion of our community center, and the CIP takes off like a rocket ship to Mars, going from the $5 million we thought you were spending and see check Registers exceeding $15 million, there is no need to call you. Don’t low ball the initial project and add “feel good”additions when we were not informed or permitted to challenge them.
Council Members Trish Kelley and Gail Reavis both commented that the stories are written by anonymous authors. My guess is that they both read the editorial pages of the OC Register. Do you see the authors name in the daily issues? No, you don’t. Their editorials represent the opinion of the publisher. With regard to blog authors. Most authors do include their name. At the Orange Juice we once permitted an anonymous author who was protecting their full time employment but had a factual story to tell. However, I would say that over 95 percent of our stories are not anonymous and contain the author’s name. Don’t CO-mingle authors with those who may comment on our stories who are permitted to sign on without divulging their names. The threads of our stories draw input from around the state. While some of these writers may be off base on their opinion we do work to defend our position in responding to their comments.
Councilman John Paul Ledesma stated that “in my opinion, I’m glad we have a very active citizenry that’s why Mission Viejo is a nice place to live because you have people who care about what’s going on.” At least, our elder statesman, John Paul Ledesma, gets it.
Our last council member once had his own blog where some of us were active contributors. However, as one of his bloggers, after I posted a story of a citizen running as a write-in candidate for a seat on the SMWD Board, that post was pulled without any discussion with me. There were no personal attacks nor inappropriate language in that announcement. In responding to the News question,”have you ever been contacted by a blogger regarding a post” he responded “Never one call to get the facts.” What did he say again??
Sometimes we do not find out about the character and integrity of an individual until after the fact. Sadly for me it was after helping him get elected in 2004.
Gilbert comment. How effective have blogs been in our news coverage?
Thank you for airing this issue and keeping it in front of readers. The current example of government dishonesty (Easelgate) in Mission Viejo involves covering up outrageous expenses and wastefulness. A city employee deserves to be fired for lying, and the whole story is going to come out because of pressure from the blogs.
I read the comments from all five council members in today’s Saddleback Valley News, and John Paul Ledesma was the only person who answered honestly and gave a balanced response.
The blogs have taken on the task of investigative reporting. Power to the blogs and activists.
To follow are strong, but personal opinions:
Hey Self-important bloggers….
You are pathetic, whining idiots. Really. I believe all of you are.
Your stupid “Committee For Integrity in Government” put most of the people you now complain about in office after you personally destroyed two of the best council members the city ever had. There are MANY of us who know your idiotic jealousy (and previous unsuccessful bids for office) are at the heart of your diatribes.
You losers replaced good people with, among others, a whiney little mouse who decided to sue her own city in retaliation for valid complaints about her stupid behavior, and a “little man’s attitude” childlike fool who had no idea what he was (or is) doing.
Hey idiots: If it weren’t for past council members which you villify, you would not be able to enjoy your “Taj Majal” or new library. Butterfield and Withrow and others worked tirelessly so YOU could work in a nice building, and our citizens could have an organized, roomy, and efficient city hall (and world class library)to be proud of.
If it were up to morons like YOU, we would still be leasing a small office instead of enjoying a property worth MANY TIMES what the city paid.
Your constant whining and me-me-me mentality is sickening to everyone in the city. Your abouse of the letters to the editors section in the newspaper is unbelievable, and your hypocrisy is blatant. Your moonie-like followers whine when THEY are expected to comply with the law (Think RV Parking and wanting to be held harmless when they fail to parent their stupid, law breaking, partying teenagers).
Please, do us all a favor and jump off the Santa Margarita Parkway bridge.
Thank you and have a good day! Idiots.
Wow! Who knew Mission Viejo was more messed up than Santa Ana?
Wow! The two deposed queens should carpool with Lance MacLean when he goes to anger management classes. The display above is evidence these people are sick.
#2
Take the anger management class yet? Maybe there is a group rate for you and some of your “friends” in MV who have rage problems that landed their names in the press.
NoHypocritesPlease.WOW! I think you should consider taking a course in anger management.
While the two blogs in the Register series were not affiliated with the Orange Juice, and one is a heavy hitter in exposing stupidity and government waste, they each provide a public service to the community.
With regard to our blowout victory in 2002 let me share some numbers for the readers. Our ticket finished first, second, and third defeating the sitting mayor and mayor pro-tem (who came in 5th and sixth.) The simple fact that we got triple the votes of the incumbents, when incumbents typically win 90 percent of the time, speaks volumes regarding citywide agreement to remove them both. It was not easy but it does demonstrate the power of the “grass roots” in local races. In hindsight are we disappointed with these council members today? You bet. We recognize that assisting candidates get elected provides access but does not guarantee that they will stick to their sound bites and campaign rhetoric once in office.
Member, City Council
Vote For: 3
Patricia Kelley 17,320 22.6%
John Paul Ledesma 16,235 21.2%
Lance MacLean 15,114 19.7%
John Maginnis 5,794 7.6%
Sherri M. Butterfield 5,487 7.2%
Susan Withrow 4,781 6.2%
Bob Gaebel 4,551 5.9%
Emmy Day 3,896 5.1%
Joe R. Chavez 1,818 2.4%
Ryan K.L. Cheo 1,743 2.3%
NoHypocritesPlease
As you are blinded with rage perhaps you can be more specific as to who you are referirng to with regard to “Your abouse of the letters to the editors section in the newspaper is unbelievable”
What is the last date in wihch I had a letter published in the local Saddleback Valley News?
And when did I ever own an RV?
Please stay off the meds if you intend to drive in my neighborhood this weekend.
Um, Larry? I think that one might need meds to drive.
Larry,
Maybe they need those meds, if this is what they have when they are off them…
GMTA and posted at the same time too!
Anonyms and Carl.
The good news is that we do have the only trauma center hospital in south county if the local drug stores are closed for the 4th of July.
Ah, blogs…the world’s gathering place for insignificant douchbags, malcontents, whiners, kooks and other assorted bozos with too much time on their hands. Whaaaa, I live in a such a nice, clean town with lots of parks and lots of amenities, whaaaa! When I drive through Mission Viejo, I see a city that is well managed and maintained. Why do you guys spend all your time bellyaching? Get a hobby already.
This whole scene reminds me of the Family Guy episode in which Meg writes an expose on Mayor Adam West’s wasting of tax dollars on some, ridiculous, paranoid (as usual), personal pet project.
This of course is the episode in which Peter replaces the story with one alleging that Luke Perry is gay because he doesn’t think Meg’s story is controversial enough.
Viva la Family Guy.
SMS
Hector.
Did you pay the toll when you entered our city?
A word of caution. Do not park your SUV in our mall parking lot. They often find their way to TJ when the owner is not looking.
Larry,
You must be getting close to the decay with that dental pick! They’re starting to scream in nonsensical tones.
When you have no logical arguments, resort to insults and personal attacks…
Carl.
You are correct. I should not have responded to Hector’s remarks as I did. That said MV residents are not” insignificant douchbags, malcontents, whiners, kooks and other assorted bozos” as stated by Hector.
We have challenged our city management on legitimate issues such as approving a redevelopment project Bond for $35 million, that, over it’s 30 year life could have reached $85 million. Specifically a new parking structure at our mall where the renovation and expansion was underway for 8 or 9 months BEFORE the city council approved that Agreement. Based on my council remarks the city attorney told the council that we did not have a legal obligation for that project yet they proceeded with the approval anyway. I presented evidence of that issue to the Attorney General’s office in Sacramento. A Deputy Attorney General agreed that “the timing raises questions” but told me to fight it myself. Nice!
Larry,
Perhaps it’s time to contact (or try to) Mr. Brown directly. If as the rumors have it, he may be running (again) for the big chair, or behind the scenes for that bid, he should be interested in more than his own party’s needs. Something like this issue should make for good media for him.
He may not like be interjected, but it is an opportunity for him and the AG’s office to do some good.
Thank you Carl.
To repeat what you observed in your prior comment. I should not fall into the trap of responding to every individual who takes a differing view especially when they resort to the attack mode instead of a debate. One person recently told me not to take eveything so seriously. He was right.
As to the mall renovation and expansion history. It really happened. However I already have received replies to my protest from former AG’s Dan Lungren and Bill Lockyer’s assistants which confirms that this story is now dated.
Larry,
Any chance you could post the original link to the story?
Anon. This post was triggered by the front page story of the Saddleback Valley News yesterday.
On the OC Register site you can jump to any of the 34 citites in the county. Let me see if I can answer your request. In addition to getting major space on the front page the entire third page is about this story.
If I can find it this afternoon I iwll post it.
Anon. Here’s the blogger story link. You can see it on the left column with the same picketing photo.
http://www.ocregister.com/ocregister/sections/news/local/missionviejo/
As of now the Register has only posted one comment on the above referenced story. That is not to say that there are others awaiting approval
sochotrod wrote:
Dear City Council, My frustrations are same as yours. Everything you promised us when you ran for election was not true. Understand your frustrations. If you people would be honest probably be no more frustrations.
6/27/2008 10:12:40 PM
Again, my personal opinions here…
Hey Gilbert…you pathetic, whining, tired, no-life moron….AND the rest of you moonie like followers who live to complain about this great city:
You don’t remember the RV issue where one of your stupid CIG members complained that she could not park her RV where she wanted even though her actions were illegal?
How about your conspiring with OC register reporters. I have actually HEARD you and one of them discuss how you could get something “good” on the city council back when they were near the Kaiser building.
I am the one with the “anger” issues??
YOU want people to think you are a do gooder….you and your cultist folowers are pathetic whiners that nobody has the guts to stand up to until now.
YOU and your cultist followers create hysteria which had put “your” people on the council, then you complain about them. Again, one of which is a whiney little peon who sued her own city after HER misbehavior caused an employee to complain.
YOU complain about a city hall that is now worth many times what was paid, and YOU enjoy it more than 99% of the citizenry.
YOU and your weenie, moonie like, cultist loonies write to the SVN and the OC register more than Obama has spouted the phrase “Hope and Change”.
YOU whine, complain, write, and protest more than a Washington DC burglar at an NRA meeting.
You and your cult-like followers can’t even stick together, which is why your loony-bin CIG debacle lasted about as long as a Frenchman playing “Ghost Recon” on an X-box.
And again, you say I am the one with anger management issues?
YOU, my idiotic loser cult leader, are the DEFINITION of someone who needs anger management classes.
YOU are the one who has whined about the city councl for the last 15 years+. and EVERYONE knows it.
Morons!
Hey Carl,
How does Larry’s colon look?? I mean, from the looks of your fawning posts, you obviously have a perfect view of it.
Thanks Larry. That link was appreciated.
The responses from the clowcil there were truly juvenile and there is quite a sense of indignation by the respondants to the interview.
Looks like you all have more work to do in finding decent representatives.
I loved the response to the easles that were found in a big heap. The respondant tried to blame the blogger for the waste and incompetence of city employees!
Larry:
From some of these responses it looks like some sore heads, and losers are still wandering the streets of Mssion Viejo.
Sorry that transparency has exposed their mad ramblings.
Holy moly – having another bad day poster #22? May I suggest a trip to Yellowstone? It will give you a happy heart. I personally recommend you travel by RV – it is the only way to fly!!
Council members have control over the bully pulpit at city hall, where they have to give the appearance of remaining civil and genteel. But they also have the same access to blogs like the rest of the public, where they can comment anonymously.
Here are two of my posts when I was a blogger on Frank Ury’s blog:
What’s in a Name?
Hiding behind a cloak of anonymity is cowardly. By not leaving your name, you lose mastery over your self-control, you silence your voice of conscience and your communication becomes vindictive and spiteful and non-productive.
The voices of the anonymous want to be heard, but do not want to be judged. Adding your name adds credibility to the debate, trustworthiness to your character and commitment to your value system.
I encourage you to be a somebody and not a nobody: include your name and let the truth guide your words and actions – a test of your convictions.
posted by cathy schlicht at 10:56 AM on March 1, 2006
What’s in a Name, Part 2
Without any thought or consideration for their audience, anonymous comment posters overwhelmingly have not conducted themselves in a professional, factual or thoughtful manner.
These nameless comment posters are afraid to express their own convictions, they are afraid to be challenged, and they do not want to be held accountable. Consequently, their comment postings become illegitimate and irrelevant.
They have not engaged the readers in a legitimate debate.
Trust matters to everybody, and that trust is established when one writes with credibility and integrity. Doing so demonstrates an appreciation towards the audience for their time in reading your comments.
The reader comes away with absolutely nothing from the lunacy of offensive and tasteless postings by the anonymous coward. If there is substance to the argument, the reader will be able to make an informed opinion from the commentary, and could add to the debate in a thoughtful manner.
If you want to be successful with your debate and win over your audience, treat them with honor and respect by having substance and value in your commentary, and conviction by including your name.
As far as having a problem with my stance on pen names and anonymous comment posters: There is no problem for me. I am not responsible for what others think or say or do. We have over a two century tradition of free speech and being offensive is legal. I simply choose not to waste my time with ankle biters or spineless, sniveling amoebas who have very little substance to offer to the readers.
posted by cathy schlicht at 9:32 AM on March 3, 2006
So, Poster child #22, aren’t you glad you did not embarrass your family name by using it??????
Yes, I was one of the community activists who was invited by Council member Frank Ury to author articles on his blog. Larry Gilbert, Joe Holtzman and myself were his major contributors. Our editorials simultaneously came to an abrupt end. Why? We discovered that he was using his positon to gain power and prestige. If we continued to write for Frank, we would of been giving the public the illusion that Frank was placing community interests first.
Today, we see him using his position to enrich himself, when, after he was elected to the council, he started a company that “specializes in advising and representing local business and governments….”
Blogging is here to stay so stop your whining. If our elected officials maintained their integrity and listened to its citizens, then they would stop being a public nuisance.
I will end with a quote from Thomas Jefferson:
“The only security of all is in a free press. The force of public opinion cannot be resisted when permitted freely to be expressed. The agitation it produces must be submitted to. It is necessary, to keep the waters pure.”
Larry
The city staff seem to painted with a broad brush, there are some very fine people working for the city and a large percent that do not like the way the management is running things today. Some of these same employees have made comments in the blogs but are forced not to use real names because of the retaliation that will take place from the city management. Many of the department heads along with mid managers do not agree with what has taken place over the last several years. It would be a good idea if council start a full blown investigation of how a certain department head has been spending city funds for well over ten years. If he will lie to the newspapers what makes you think he’s been telling council the truth. Think about it. Does the end justify the means ? He thinks so.
#22 NoHypocrites Please! “Again my personal opinions here….” No kidding.
And we do not know or care who you are so long as you have something to add to the topic discussion.
Conspiring? “How about your conspiring with OC register reporters. I have actually HEARD you and one of them discuss how you could get something “good” on the city council back when they were near the Kaiser building.”
#22 nameless. It’s not conspiring when reporters are doing their job and looking for evidence or witnesses to support pending stories. They know that I kept extensive files on policy issues and CIP’s in this city. That’s their job.
Are you referring to my lawsuit regarding the city hall project?
Should I share with the readers how a former assistant city manager told a property manager not to talk to me after I asked if they would extend a multi-year lease discount rather than elevated month-to-month rental charges as we debated staying put or building our own city hall.
An officer with Dolphin Partners, managers of the Pala Building that served as our former city hall responded to me during a phonecall stating he would “gladly break a deal” if the city would enter into a long term rental contract. After I mentioned that telephone exchange the conversation was ended. The city used month-to-month lease rates to justify moving out of that building that was in full operation. I think this is where the angst comes in. Residents argued that the building we occupied could have been purchased as we moved into it for about 1/4th the cost we eventually spent on our current Taj Mahal. Furthermore there were tenants in the Pala building to offset operating costs similar to the great deal pulled off by our sister city in Laguna Hills in their new city hall located on El Toro Road. In fact I discussed that deal with Laguna Hills current mayor Allan Songstad, Jr. at Sheriff Hutchens swearing in ceremony last Tuesday.
But not here, not in Mission Viejo. We have great plans for a new facility. We wanted some new digs.
This unnamed person is still angry becasue I was the Petitioner in a Superior Court Case trying to get a restraining order to block a deceptive advisory ballot measure that almost delayed the vote.
Members of the CIG have since moved on but apparently he, or she, simply cannot let go of the past.
Funny Business.
Thanks for your concern about my health!
If I don’t hear from you beforehand, have a safe and relaxing 4th of July. Larry
MV Resident.
Without going into any details there are rumors of other questionable activites by an upper city manager that I will look into time permitting.
Stay tuned!
As I reflect back on the Register story of two Mission Viejo bloggers and comments of our city council members relating to blogs tells me that they do not understand the role of bloggers.
In one sense we are equivalent to talk radio where readers can jump in, on-line, as we cover events and policy decisions. Having been in the OC Register building in Santa Ana I can report that the editorial board is located on the fifth floor while the main newsroom is on the third floor. We could be compared to the fifth floor writers who offer “opinions” rather than covering the news. As Lance stated we offer “opinions.” Lance. There is no unanimity of opinion in blogging. That’s our objective Lance.
On occasion we will break a story or provide traditional coverage such as our attending campaign related events or BOS meetings alongside card carrying OC Register or LA Times reporters.
More of my personal opinions:
Cathy Schlicht writes that she is a community activist, and then calls me a coward.
Classy. Such ladylike behavior, and completely expected.
Frankly, I do not care to have a debate and I do not care what you think of my opinions.
I do not care what you think of me.
I am laughing at you (as are the majority of people in Mission Viejo). Yes, we laugh at you because you have no life.
All I want to do is remind anyone reading what hypocritical, sorry, whiney, small minded, no life losers you and Larry and his cultist followers are.
I was (and am still) LAUGHING at you because you still consider yourselves some sort of asset to the citizenry of this great city.
You, my dear, haplesss, loony, cultist, whiners, are people with nothing better to do than complain. You are hypocrites because you denigrate people over, and over, and over for no other reason than to feel good about yourselves.
Nothing you write in your pathetic attempts justifying your behavior for the last FIFTEEN YEARS will change that.
As for being a coward, what could be more cowardly than bearing false witness, or planning the destruction of good people because you perceive a slight of some sort?
Larry states his conspiring with certain register reporters is good reporting. Un-be-lievable.
Cathy forgets about her denigration of public servants because she did’nt want to follow the rules regarding her RV.
You people are the best examples of evil in the world. Namely, publicly humiliating others when they hurt your feelings or call you on your own mis-deeds. You make it your mission to prove them wrong, and hurt them. Yes you do, and you know it.
Hitler was like that too. Pathetic.
Folks. There is a rumor that “NoHypocritesPlease” is posturing to run for the Mission Viejo city council. Apparently he will be, or already has, set up an appointment to meet with our city clerk sometime on or after July 14th to pull his papers. As such he is using the Juice to see what traction, if any, he can muster. Based on my read of over 30 comments on this post this focus group should advise him to save his money.
larry – i heard he was running for dog catcher !!
Hey–NoHypocritesPlease
Mr. Angry Pants–suggest you join Lance MacLean at his anger management class. You surely do need it. !!
Don’t discourage this person from running. Does no one appreciate the entertainment value of having a crazy person on the council? (Oh, wait, Mission Viejo already has more than its fair share.)