Cliven Bundy, the sixty year-old rancher, along with hundreds of “armed” supporters, some on horseback and wearing cowboy hats, successfully got the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) to return his cattle, and retreated from the “open range” land earlier today. The BLM claimed they did so to protect their employees and citizens from possible physical harm (a bloody shoot-out). If you ask me, they figured out that the individuals who showed up to back Bundy were not the average protester. Among the crowd of around a hundred were armed militia (who have been training for this type of conflict for years). They were in for the long haul and if the shooting began, it could spark an uprising in other states.
Americans are angry with government; their constant lies, the spy program and the general intrusion on civil liberties. Now they want to forcibly take away private property and throw someone off their land? The group who stood up to Uncle Sam this week took action. Not by sending emails to their state reps — they actually “showed up.”
If you are not familiar with what the fight between Bundy and BLM is all about, here is the back story and ABC news video link: http://abcnews.go.com/US/nevada-cattle-rancher-wins-range-war-federal-government/story?id=23302610#.U0mBp_xdj8s.twitter
Bundy’s family has lived on the land since 1870 and he has been paying grazing fees to Clark County, Nevada for decades, long before BLM got into the picture. The BLM arrived in the mid 90s, claiming the right to do so because they were protecting the endangered desert tortoise. It wasn’t long before they began systematically driving out neighboring cattle ranchers.
Then they went after Bundy demanding he reduce his herd down to a level that would not sustain his ranch. Bundy owns the water and forage rights to this land. He paid for these rights. He built fences, established water ways, and constructed roads with his own money, with the approval of Nevada and BLM. When BLM started using his fees to run him off the land and harassing him, he had enough and stopped paying.
This week’s events got social media’s attention when the BLM showed up with helicopters, SWAT, and two-hundred other law enforcement officials to not only confiscate Bundy’s cattle, but to tell those protesting where they were allowed to protest. Law enforcement attempted to “herd” protesters (pun intended) to a small area called “free speech” zones, where they could hold their signs and limited the amount of protesters to twenty-five.
God bless whomever’s idea it was to put cameras in cellphones because the video of law enforcement tazing protestors who refused to comply went viral on the Internet within minutes.
People who work the land aren’t like us “city folk.” They don’t have time to spend on social media; they work long hard hours and when push-comes-to-shove, they do not back down. They stand their ground.
You won’t hear much national media coverage about it though, CNN is still rehashing theories of where Malaysia Flight 370 could be. They’ve been talking about it for nearly five weeks. You will read about it from online news sources though.
If the BLM is so concerned about the desert tortoise, what about the plight of the American wild horse? The BLM is rounding up wild horses roaming federal lands and shipping them off to be slaughtered and turned into horse meat (a delicacy in Japan). Are they more concerned about tortoises than horses? If they are upset about Bundy not paying their share of his grazing fees, why aren’t they upset about the six billion dollars “misplaced” by the State Department that was paid to contractors around the world?
BLM’s story doesn’t sit right with me. In every instance when it comes to what our government tells us and what is the “real story,” it’s always about money. If the government tells you they are here to help you (or an endangered species) you’re screwed. If they say they are taking military action to save people from a vicious dictator in a foreign country, it’s not about saving lives, it’s about regime change and money for the military industrial complex. Ask any Iraq or Afghanistan citizen. It’s never about that. It’s all about the Washington elite and their rich buddies.
Harry Reid’s name has been coming up in conversations about what could be the real reason behind the land grab. Reid’s name has been linked to several stories about building solar panels in the southwestern Nevada desert. I am for alternative energy. I think we need more solar panels, along with wind energy. If that is the real reason, then why not come clean? There is no reason why everyone can’t come to a reasonable compromise and that includes giving the tortoise a safe place to live.
But our government doesn’t like to do things that way. The bureaucrats in Washington are used to pushing people around, especially those living in so-called third worlds (just calling them that makes me sick…who made America “god” and the rulers of the world? The only ones who still believe we are a super power are us.)
The good thing is times are changing. Americans are waking up and they are standing up to big government. Americans said “no” when Obama wanted to “help out” Syrians. They are saying “no” to “free speech” zones. They are saying “no” to the feds pushing Americans around with tazers. This is still America and nobody tells us where and when, we are allowed to say what we think.
SOURCES:
http://danaloeschradio.com/the-real-story-of-the-bundy-ranch/
http://rt.com/usa/6-billion-contracts-state-department-493/
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/57786997-78/horses-wild-blm-county.html.csp
Thanks for an alternative view.
The problem is that government almost always suffers from mission creep when it manages to accomplish something in the first place. A lot of it comes from the joy of telling other people how to live (drug war) other countries how to run themselves (war war) and telling us what we now have to accept as the new norm (war on terror/Constitution). A lot of it comes from bureaucratic calcification and job security.
A lot of us see a similar trajectory in the activities of the DEA, NSC, Homeland Security (Hell the list is getting endless) right down to the local cops who now get their jollies dressing up as combat troops (war on whomever).
The resource agencies are also, seemingly getting into the uniformed soldierly routine and we can expect more from the BLM, NFS, EPA, etc.
Inge, get your facts straight. The issue was that Bundy’s cattle were ALSO grazing on PUBLIC lands (not private, it’s NOT his land) and refusing to pay fees for the PRIVILEGE of doing so. For you to gloss over that fact is disingenuous and it undercuts your credibility.
And your constant, illogical leaps that essentially say “because the government did A, that means they can’t be trusted on B” are, frankly, laughable.
“This is still America and nobody tells us where and when, we are allowed to say what we think.”
Actually, there are just such restrictions placed on all kinds of protests…restrictions held up by the Supreme Court. You know, that court the Founding Fathers established.
So Inge, do you think that protesters at abortion clinics should have free reign on where they can stand and what areas they can occupy?
“Actually, there are just such restrictions placed on all kinds of protests…”
Yes, there are. And it’s because of a growing police state mentality. The idea of a “free speech zone” authorized by the government is Orwellian. Liberals used to oppose this sort of bullshit. Not any more, apparently.
I do.
No, it’s because the courts decided that, for example, protesters cannot impede a woman seeking an abortion at an abortion clinic from entering said clinic.
That’s got nothing to do with a police state.
Free speech zones are a product of the Bush Administration. They were wrong then. They are wrong now. All public land is a free speech zone.
Are you talking about the same Supreme Court that said money is speech (Citizens United) ?
Free speech means free speech and that means having to listen to speech, one might not like. For example, I might not like what you have to say but I will defend your right to say it. And as for protesters at abortion clinics, they should not have a designated areas either.
Having to ask the government permission to protest is not protesting. Americans are so used to having their personal freedoms revoked, it seems natural to them. For example, airport security.
Yes, I’m talking about that Supreme Court. And there you go again positing that because the Supreme Court got “A” wrong, that MUST mean they got “B” wrong.
You not only brought up free speech…you brought up WHERE it occurs.
So let me make sure I have this right…you believe that protesters at an abortion clinic should have the right to block a woman from entering that clinic. Do I have that right?
They have a right to speak freely at a clinic. They do no have the right to block access to anyone entering. If they do the second, they should be arrested. As someone who was a shield at a clinic I can state that “standing your ground” and blocking access is not a case of free speech but a case of harassment. Holding up a sign and screaming at people qualifies as free speech. Shoving fake aborted fetus’ into a young woman’s face is NOT any more than my saying “suck my dick” is free speech, but pulling it out and whipping it around in your face is not.
There are lines, and some people don’t know how not to cross them. For them you need strict rules that they must adhere to because they have uncoupled their brains from their actions.
I agree, and I dare say Inge does as well. She just doesn’t want to admit that part of her rant (typically) was loosely worded and the implications of what she said were not thought out.
Here’s another example; Do you think that protesters on college campuses in the 1960s should have had the right to block building entrances, thereby denying access to those building to African Americans?
Good question. Please answer it yourself. And tell us why.
Then tell us that the President has the right to herd protestors of misguided foreign military adventures into little free speech pens. ‘Cause after all those pesky abortion clinic protestors can’t be allowed to block the doorway of an abortion clinic.
*By the way…….Citizens United…guess who won that case? Ted Olson. Remember Ted Olson, husband of Barbara Olson who died going into the Pentagon on 911. Now Ted is going to be representing the City of Newport
Beach against the Rehab Homes. He also, is the same Attorney along with
Ultra Liberal (sic) David Boies who went to the Supreme Court in support of Same Sex Marrriage…….hmmm. Does this all go to show that even a broken clock can be right twice a day?
That analogy with abortion clinics is nonsense, of course. What we are talking about is the larger issue people’s right to seek redress from its government. Nobody is talking about an issue where some citizens are impeding other citizens as they go about their business. That is situational.
Get your armband ready, anon. In a little while you won’t be anon anymore.
Inge said, and I quote;
“This is still America and nobody tells us WHERE (my emphasis) and when, we are allowed to say what we think.”
That is incorrect.
Question answered.
Here’s your question, again:
“Do you think that protesters on college campuses in the 1960s should have had the right to block building entrances, thereby denying access to those building to African Americans?”
Please respond, and kindly explain your answer.
Mr. Zenger, I’ll answer that question when you can point out to me where I’ve said that the Federal Government may ALWAYS restrict where a person exercises free speech via protest.
I’ve suggested to Inge (and you’ve agreed) that they, at times, CAN.
See the difference?
I think I was misunderstood. “This is still America and nobody tells us WHERE (my emphasis) and when, we are allowed to say what we think.”
The government can make as many laws to try to control my behavior as they want, I am saying that I will break them, I guess that falls under civil disobedience, which I have participated in many times in the past during the first Gulf War back in the early 90s.
Back when Occupy tried to camp on the lawn outside city hall, they walked 24 hours a day to persuade city council to allow them to camp. The deal was that they had keep moving or possibly be arrested. They followed “orders” I did not. I sat in a lawn chair. I guess the idea of having people walk continuously was supposed to wear them down and make them go away. To me it was ridiculous and I refused to obey their silly so-called law. The police watched us. They saw me sitting in the chair. Greg was there that night, so he knows. I never was arrested, but if it came down to it I would gladly sit in jail.
Many who leave comments here think getting arrested is the end of the world. There are far worse things to endure. Many Americans are getting used to living in a police state. They gladly allow the gov. to read their emails, collect personal information, etc. all in the name of national security because god knows the boogey man is waiting to get us at any moment.
Cynthia is apparently doing a blog post on this event as well. (I don’t know whether it’s for us or for another blog.) Despite being a strong and active property rights advocate, she has a very different perspective on what’s been happening here. I look forward to reading it.
For now, I’ll note that the likelihood of the ranchers there being under the sorts of subsequent long-term surveillance (and in many cases violence) that we Occupy protesters have enjoyed is very low — and that if a group of African-Americans or Latinos ever tried this, the outcome would be much more like the massacre at Wounded Knee.
The only person there needs to be long-term surveillance of is Mr. Bundy. He’s defying a court order. I, for one, hope they haul his ass into court and compel him to pay the fees he apparently has been dodging.
You’re being awfully forgiving of people threatening federal agents with violence. Back in Occupy, and in the rallies after the Anaheim shootings, we got the impression that that was unacceptable.
I’m not saying that’s acceptable. I’m suggesting this is about Mr. Bundy. The State’s Rights folks would LOVE to turn this into a causus belli, wouldn’t they? I’m pleased that the BLM stopped the roundup. Now the government can focus on compelling Mr. Bundy to respond to the court order.
“Birds born in a cage think flying is an illness.”
-Alejandro Jodorowski
Deep, very deep.
So, after reading Dana Loesch’s article I finally get it; Clive Bundy believes time stopped in 1946.
He doesn’t believe that the federal government is his landlord.
He doesn’t believe that the federal government should get the OVER ONE MILLION DOLLARS in grazing fees that he owes.
From The LA Times;
“The government has said the cattle round-up was a “last resort” to enforce court orders ruling that Bundy has failed to pay more than $1 million in fees since 1993 for his cattle to graze on public land. Forcing him either to pay or to give up his cattle is a matter of fairness to the 16,000 ranchers who do follow the rules, U.S. officials say.
The 68-year-old father of 14 has argued in court that his Mormon ancestors worked the land since the 1880s, long before the BLM was formed, giving him rights that predate federal involvement. He says he only owes about $300,000.”
http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-nevada-rancher-blm-20140412,0,1159016.story#ixzz2ym0zOKf9
From the Huffington Post;
“Bundy acknowledges that her family owes significant money in unpaid grazing fees, but she refuses to pay that money to the federal government.
“Everybody wants to put out there that [we] have not paid [for] grazing rights, but we did try to pay the fees to Clark County and the state of Nevada,” she said. “We tried to pay to the people we filed the water rights with, but they refused to take it.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/11/cliven-bundy-blm-waco_n_5134340.html
I would like to see Inge and the other genius’s who’ve taken up this cause apply that premise to other situations. Think of all the laws we could ignore just because our grandpappy’s pre-dated them.
I’m sure Inge would understand if some southerners asserted their right to own slaves because hey, their families owned slaves waay before the federal government outlawed it. States’ rights forever!!!!!!!!!!!
And who wouldn’t love to NOT PAY their bills because the person or agency changed hands. I wonder if Inge tries to pay her rent to the Mexican rancher’s heirs who once owned the land she lives on or maybe she just goes to the casinos to “pay” the indians?
I guess it will be up to each of us to determine exactly when we feel time should have stopped. What could possibly go wrong?
immigration laws and court ordered deportations are not being followed either
“A man’s got a right to protect his property and his life, and we ain’t lettin’ no .. lawman take either.”
Open Range – Robert Duval
“Rollin, rollin, rollin though the streams are swollen, keep them doggies rollin Rawhide, through rain and wind and whether…..hell bent for leather is waiting at the end of his ride…….”.also some pretty nasty phone calls from several Government Agencies….no doubt!
Not to worry, Tommy Lee Jones and Will Smith are coming to visit Clive Bundy with their variety of other worldly weapons……”Welcome, Men in Black!” and of course the “Welcome Wagons” for the cows…. Sean Hannity needs to broadcast “From the Bundy Ranch”…….
Re-phrased: “A man’s got a right to protect his property and his life, and we ain’t lettin’ any eco-maniacal enviros or their jackbooted federal storm troopers take either.”
Except idiot … it AIN’T HIS LAND, it’s ours.
Mr. Bundy needs to pay his grazing fees to the owner of the property his cattle are grazing on, the federal government.
The Feds back down – you won’t see this in the MSM:
http://www.infowars.com/feds-back-down-in-new-bundy-standoff-agree-to-release-cattle/
Actually, you will;
http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/12/us/nevada-rancher-rangers-cattle-showdown/index.html?hpt=hp_bn1
Any other canards you’d care to throw our way?
Nope – your MSM vid did not show the armed Feds backing down – watch the vid I posted – there is a big difference.
It’s the same news, with different words and footage.
You’re tilting at windmills.
Uh .. no – MSM did not want to show the Federal troops backing down – devastating to the them.
Did you see it? You won’t even acknowledge it happening.
You’re obsessing on the notion of “backing down.” Like I suggested to Greg, you folks would LOVE to turn this into a causus belli.
It’s not. It’s one man ignoring a court order. He’s not a hero; he’s a lawbreaker.
once the illegals decided they could choose which laws to follow such as being here, driving cars here, and working here, all illegal acts then I guess other americans can start choosing what laws to follow too.
Inge, after you posted your comment in the WOT and responses to it (they should be transferred to this post) I found alternative explanations:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/04/13/1291642/-Cliven-Bundy-is-a-Big-Fat-Million-Dollar-Welfare-Dead-Beat
http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2014/04/11/right-wing-media-eagerly-promote-cliven-bundy-and-his-anti-federal-faceoff/
There is no doubt that the federal government at times has exceeded its authority beyond what is normally acceptable, as exposed in the Snowden revelations. Another recent example is the DEA raiding a woman’s house after she shopped at a garden store. On other situations it has been appropriate, as pointed out by Anon in the civil rights situation.
You tend to evoke “tea parties” solutions to the problem of government. Some of their grievances are valid but I think their solutions fail as the problem is not the government as an institution in itself, but who have occupied this institution. The current Income inequality issue clearly shows where the problem is. A local experience with real “tea party” type of governance is illustrated in this VOC article:
http://www.voiceofoc.org/community_editorial_board/article_9f5f45d0-b893-11e3-b667-001a4bcf887a.html
btw, your links in this post are not working.
Ricardo, you have to copy/paste the link to the url. That’s why I list my sources below the post. For some reason my link button doesn’t work for the OJB wordpress, although it does on my own wordpress blog.
I don’t see a need to transfer my comments from WOT since I wrote a whole new post.
I do the copy/paste in reverse, copying from the URL and pasting in the text of this box, and then clicking in the link. I read your links, and the poor tortoises have not been a factor in the conversations of this thread. Their survival may be a synopsis of the challenges we, humans, are facing for our own survival.
*No country for old men…like us! We love Tommy Lee Jones…and Harvard ’68 too!
*’Shipian.
Slam. Slam. Slam. That is the sound of my head hitting a brick wall. I get it, all of our friends are posting stories that SEEM legit and the story SEEMS to line up with the incendiary video being posted, and hey we haven’t had a good old fashioned American folk hero in simply ages, so let’s all rally around the iconic cowboy. But at some point, do we not CHECK OUR SOURCES?
Before we all load our pick-ups with a gun rack and truck nuts dangling, to head for the desert and stand in solidarity with a great American patriot and freedom fighter, would it not benefit us just the tiniest bit to CHECK OUR FACTS? No, not by glancing at the link to a highly opinionated website forwarded by someone who forwarded from someone else, but FACTS. This nightmare has been in and out of court for decades, do you think there might be, oh, I don’t know, court records?! Do you think the court records back up the lunatic in a stetson and his rock solid legal theory that he (depending on which day you talk to him) either;
Does not have to recognize the Federal government because the State of Nevada is a sovereign power,
He got here before the Feds, despite their having been given control by the Nevada State constitution decades prior to his relatives arriving in the area,
He “fired” the Federal government and no longer has to answer to them, or pay them,
He paid his Federal fees to Clark County because they do a better job of letting him do whatever the Hell he wants on public land,
It is his right as an American to blow the head off anyone who tries to remove HIS property from PUBLIC land where the cattle are trespassing and causing destruction, (dust bowl, anyone?)
That is on the days when he is not denying they are his cows at all, because he is fined by the head of cattle invading public land, and does not want to “own” them even when they are clearly branded, which lasts right up until he sells them or the Feds try to round them up to remove them (if they aren’t “his” for purposes of paying the fine, and aren’t on his property, what’s the problem?)
Show me a court pleading that grants him permission to pocket well into seven figures of profits for his cash crop by not turning over fees paid by other commercial ranches, giving him an edge on his competition. Hell if he was Harry Reid’s friend using public land for profit we would want his head.
Do you think there might be environmental documents showing in detail the damage to the conservation reserve his cattle have overrun?
No I don’t want to hear anyone compare Bundy’s illegal cattle to illegal immigration. Nor do I want to hear about the right of an idiot to show up to a highly hostile, tension filled crime scene where violence has been openly threatened by a clearly unstable family, but the crowd wants to exercise their RIGHT to protest where they want to protest, and screw the ability of law enforcement to keep people a safe distance from being hit by flying bullets! And yet, if those morons flooding into the area in their F-150s with “Dixie” playing on the horn as standard equipment got shot in the course of Federal authorities FINALLLY enforcing court orders after DECADES of trying every peaceful and legal avenue possible to get this freeloader off OUR land, where he has overgrazed it to its destruction (dust bowl anyone?) allowing his cattle to forage far beyond the boundaries of his own land, far beyond the borders of the “allotment” he was permitted to use on public land as long as he followed the rules for maintaining sustainable herd levels and paid his fees, and now has cattle out on conservation reserve land, where grazing rights were legally purchased from other ranchers in order the let the land rest from the destruction caused by the imported non-native species, well line up the attorneys, we will have those same “militias” suing the Feds for not keeping them safe in their First Amendment right to be stupid (and dead)
Do I sound angry? yeah, I am, angrier than I have been in a long time. I am used to government being stupid and greedy and playing fast and loose with the rules and I hate it but it no longer surprises me. In this case the Feds have done plenty wrong, in their handling of the issues (I would have rounded up his cattle off the federal land, delivered it to his way-too-small-to-sustain-the-herd-he-expects-taxpayers-to-support private property, and told him if his cattle wandered onto public land again it would be shot on sight, and if he had a problem he could protest from jail, and THAT should have been done at least 10 years ago, before his fines built to a point you know he is never going to pay us. AND I hope the Feds charge him for every nickel of this circus.
But what I am over-the-top angry about is people I truly like and respect just sucking down the Kool-Aid, and hitting the “share” button on facebook without THINKING IT THROUGH and ENGAGING RESEARCH SKILLS. The dumbing down of the internet is alive and well, and I am FURIOUS that it has been promoted by the extreme right, which continues to erode the credibility of the Republican party, and that is very much my problem.
When the far right perpetuates this crap the entire Republican party looks like the inbred morons one Clark County Commissioner accused the militia of being, and I do not like being lumped into the same family as Deliverance, thank you very much.
Vern, I have 17 pages of word doc linking to primary source materials, including court records, land records, environmental documents, interviews, and legislation dating back to the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo. I will condense it down to my version of concise but you will have a day ahead of you editing it to what is relevant and what I just found brain-exploding.
For now I am taking a break and curling up with a book about REAL heroes, because the Bundy ranch is not providing us with one, no matter how desperately the American public wants to believe it.
Nevada Gov. Brian Sandoval is still pissed about the whole affair.
“No cow justifies the atmosphere of intimidation which currently exists nor the limitation of constitutional rights that are sacred to all Nevadans,” Sandoval said in a Tuesday statement. “The BLM needs to reconsider its approach to this matter and act accordingly.”
He took particular issue with the government’s decision to establish a specific area in which residents could protest.
“Most disturbing to me is the BLM’s establishment of a ‘First Amendment Area’ that tramples upon Nevadans’ fundamental rights under the U.S. Constitution,” he said in the statement.
This story only seems “legit” to all the devotees of right-wing media. They’ve been fed a steady diet of “fear and hate and nonsense” (Charlie Pierce). So much so they can’t tell truth from fiction and FICTION is what they’ve ended up believing in.
The conservatives in this country turned to the CRAZY along time before Mr. Bundy came along, this is just their latest cause celebre’.
Cynthia – Perhaps it is time for the Federal government to relinquish ownership of most of “it’s” land in the west – maybe that is what this is really about – see the map.
http://strangemaps.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/map-owns_the_west.jpg?w=300
No, that’s not what this is about. That’s what folks like you WANT this to be about.
What this is about is one man who has chosen to ignore the law.
skallywag, the people of Nevada are free to use whatever legal means are at their disposal to accomplish that end. If they as a State decide to toss the Feds, they are welcome to it. I have no stake in the issue. What I object to is ONE MAN choosing which laws he will and will not obey. I object even more to the ignorance of anti-government extremists posing as “conservatives” while failing in any way shape or form to determine whether the information they are sharing to accelerate an already tense and potentially deadly stand off is TRUE OR NOT!!!!!
Sometimes it takes “one man” or “one woman” taking a stand in order to bring attention to the problem and to therefore begin the process. Take Rosa Parks for example.
“Sometimes it takes “one man” or “one woman” taking a stand in order to bring attention to the problem and to therefore begin the process.”
Take a stand for WHAT Skallywag?! We are talking about Cliven Bundy. You want Americans to take a stand for anarchy? For a refusal to recognize the Federal government, refusal to pay fees that others DO pay, or a stand against any recognition of public vs private property? Let’s all take over the sidewalks in front of our homes, it is adjacent, therefore it is “ours” by right. Is that it?
” Take Rosa Parks for example.” Now you are kidding me. Rosa Parks stood against an oppressive system that unfairly victimized her as a second class citizen. Cliven Bundy is pissed that he can’t use public land to his heart’s content, free of the encumbrance and fees, or limitations that prevent him from putting so much cattle on the land that it is destroyed. Out of your mind, buddy.
To compare a compelling MORAL stand with what is largely an IDEOLOGICAL debate that goes back to our founding (federal power v. State’s rights) is, well, kinda off base, to put it mildly.
OK … [skallywag] . I am going to put my pets on your land, offer to pay you rent while they feed and take a shit on your land and then claim you are oppressing me and not pay rent but demand the animals stay. Makes sense, since you clearly think that is ok.
what I object to is ONE MAN choosing which laws he will and will not obey…eric holder, barack obama, any of those ring a bell
illegal cattle vs. illegal immigrants. who does our gubmint support and who does it oppose?
“Should an unwarrantable measure of the federal government be unpopular in particular States .. the means of opposition to it are powerful and at hand. The disquietude of the people; their repugnance and, perhaps, refusal to co-operate with the officers of the Union; the frowns of the executive magistracy of the State; the embarrassments created by legislative devices, which would often be added on such occasions, would oppose, in any State, difficulties not to be despised; would form, in a large State, very serious impediments; and where the sentiments of several adjoining States happened to be in unison, would present obstructions which the federal government would hardly be willing to encounter.”
James Madison, Federalist No. 46
And it’s that line of thinking that led States to secede from the Union in the hopes of perpetuating an immoral practice.
Of course, you know full well that not all the Founding Fathers believed the same way Mr. Madison did, don’t you?
I don’t think that I will be able to comment further on this post – Vern has me on a strangulation “speech leash.”
Just don’t repeat and repeat and repeat yourself while 1) being mean and 2) not really listening to or thinking about what the other side is saying, and you should be fine.
*Skally does not look like James Madison……”We have met James Madison….we know James Madison and we are friends of James Madison……and Skally….you are no James Madison!”
Winships ……
oh never mind … it’s not worth it with you two ….
Still wondering if skallywag made it through Cynthia’s long explanation of what actually happened here… not much gets through his thick skull.
*Mr. Bundy believes that the world is his grazing ground and if he didn’t pay in 1993…..he doesn’t need to pay between or now either. The Government says he owes them a cool million dollars and they have a lien on his property. He could ask Harry Reid to buy his property….but then Bundy would have to tithe the Mormon Church……and he doesn’t want to do that either. They just need Thomas Magnum to be the Process Server and hand him his Notice to Appear in Court. In fact, they might get Bill O’Reilly or Megan Kelly to deliver it.
Since Willie de Ville and Demagogue have not come back yet, in their place Ron & Anna provide a much needed sense of humor. You make me laugh!
*It is called….laughing up your sleeve……Ha Ha! As John said in “Hard Days Night”……”Don’t tase that dog bucko…..” said the BLM Officer!
I see a lot of George Washington, and Abe Lincoln and Alexander Hamilton still pass through a lot, but I don’t see NEARLY enough of Andrew Jackson these days, and I’ve forgotten what Ulysses Grant and Benjamin Franklin even LOOK LIKE! lol.
You have it back-asswards Vern. I refute your statements and their conclusion that I am repetitive (I am not) and that I am any meaner than any other commenter (I am not) – you are the one who is on probation here Vern – not me.
LOL
Bass-ackwardness and a reversal of the condemnation — that’s a nice celebration of Palindrome Day, ‘rat!
“Vern, I have 17 pages of word doc linking to primary source materials, including court records, land records, environmental documents, interviews, and legislation dating back to the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo. I will condense it down to my version of concise but you will have a day ahead of you editing it to what is relevant and what I just found brain-exploding.”
I think that Cynthia has been taking bloviation lessons from Diamond. Save your 17 pages dear Cynthia – most are fully aware of the Federal Guv-mint’s claim of right. And I am willing to grant that the feds have the technical high ground on that point.
What the feds don’t have is the moral high ground (see my James Madison quote) – nor do they have the will of the people of the western states. Perhaps I should say “they don’t have the will of many of the people of the Western States.” This is just the beginning of a long drawn out process – a process that I hope will see control of the land in the hands of the respective Western States in proportion to that of the States east of the Mississippi River.
“Should an unwarrantable measure of the federal government be unpopular in particular States .. the means of opposition to it are powerful and at hand.”
James Madison – Federalist 46
Because we all know what happens when Public lands get into private hands;
A veritable PARADISE unfolds before our eyes!
Where, exactly WHERE, do I say to put public lands into private hands? – idiot.
Take it easy with the insults . . .
You didn’t say it anywhere, for the record.
Pardon me – I confused anon with anonster who said to me:
anonster
Posted April 13, 2014 at 8:54 AM
“Except idiot … it AIN’T HIS LAND, it’s ours.”
So you don’t want that land in government hands, eh?
Who’s hands, exactly, do you want it in, then?
Vern accuses me of not reading posted comments – he should look at you in that respect as well. This is my comment above:
“This is just the beginning of a long drawn out process – a process that I hope will see control of the land in the hands of the respective Western States in proportion to that of the States east of the Mississippi River.”
As I thought, this is nothing more than a classic Federal power vs. State’s rights issue for you. And you, apparently, think it’s virtually impossible, (or, what, simply too hard?) for individuals to affect policy as long as it’s policy controlled by the Federal Government? Please, disavow me of that notion if I have it wrong.
One doesn’t have to strain too hard to find examples where States don’t always make positive choices.
I think you see everything…EVERYTHING…through that lens. It’s an ideology that you simply paste onto all situations, as if it’s always the ideal solution. But again, disavow me of that notion if I have that wrong.
One doesn’t have to strain too hard to find examples where the Federal government doesn’t always make positive choices. And in fact makes choices detrimental to the values and principles of the States.
No, it’s actually a classic big state vs. small state issue. Skally is pointing at the apparent inequity of federal control in terms of a state’s land area and resources of larger Western states vs. smaller Eastern states.
It’s a two hundred year old issue. Why does New England have more say over how land is used in Nevada than Nevada does itself? Why more than Nevadans, Arizonans, Utahians, and New Mexicans combined?
“One doesn’t have to strain too hard to find examples where the Federal government doesn’t always make positive choices. And in fact makes choices detrimental to the values and principles of the States.”
EXACTLY!!
And so why would an intelligent person put all their eggs behind one approach, so to speak?
Yup, pard.’
However it’s interesting to remember that Wyoming has the same number of Senators as Massachusetts or New York.
Oops!
*Big state…small state…size matters! Did we say we love Richard Kiel?
The real Jaws…anyhow!
Ryan, if that’s what skally believes, and it’s a burning issue for him, then he’s obviously free to become active in a movement to change Federal policy.
In the meantime, Mr Bundy should pay the Governement the fees he owes them.
anon @ 6:06, I find it curious that you refer to the payee in this instance in the third person: the Government is “them.”
To the battlements with you, then, skally.
I shall gird for battle with truth.
Yes, you battle the truth. I refrain from asking what someone battling the truth girds himself in though.
*The Wild, Wild West…did we say we love Duke Wayne, Wyatt Earp and Doc Holliday? And Robert Conrad…good things come in small packages…and how!
*Bundy does not wear Tony Lama boots….you know!
#shipian #nonsense #streamofconsciousness #moviemetaphor
#perfect
I don’t get it. If he’s not paying for the water and forage rights on public land like everyone else, then that’s stealing from us all and putting legal ranchers at a disadvantage.
If this was land he owned, that would be different. Then the government should at least use eminent domain to compensate him for not being able to use his land.
*Clive boy is a Tea Party Member in the State of Nevada. He has close friends in Laughlin….who have Time Share properties. Clive Boy drives a pick-up truck made in America. How could he be doing anything wrong in the United States of America? Eh? He probably even knows that great Clint Eastwood line: “Get off my lawn!” We just think he should be required to pick up all the cow paddies that his cattle leave on Government property.
So I guess we can all show up and start grazing our cattle at Mile Sqaure Park too? Or maybe start drilling for oil there?
Cliven Bundy is a criminal and should be in jail. He’s trying to steal public land from us claiming it’s his to do whatever he wants with it.
He’s also un-American.
This article is horrible. It appears it’s based on a lie through omission. How could someone writing an article about the situation leave out the fact it’s PUBLIC land? ie. My land, your land, our land.
I wonder why Inge hasn’t weighed back in any significant way on HER post.
I see her touting her “critical thinking skills” and her ability to “speak her mind” without “going along with the crowd” on another post, but it appears that here she’s posted and dashed.
I challenge Inge to come back and defend her position or admit that she was led astray by Mr. Bundy’s cause and his supporters. Which is it Ms. Critical Thinker?
*We love Inge….a tough cookie and a survivor…reminds us of America’s pioneer spirit. Did we say we love Lane Kifflin and Kobe? Tiger, too!
Yeah, but wouldn’t it be interesting to see if all the back and forth here changed her (or anybody else’s) mind?
Isn’t that the point of this blog?
Someone writes a post and everyone weighs in, some with facts and additional information and some with opposing views and snark, but hopefully we all LEARN something. Isn’t better when we can admit when we got something wrong or that we misunderstood the issue or that we flat out got schooled?
Years ago I disagreed with you (at least I think it was you) on a post about public buildings. You changed my mind, I learned something and I admitted to being wrong. It’s not that hard to do.
Inge tends to runaway from the debate, she doesn’t engage on the facts. That may be okay for those who merely comment, but when it’s your post I think you should be prepared to take on the back and forth.
Why are you channeling the Winships?
Because he missed out on 2012’s “Comment Like the Winships Open Thread” and he’s trying to catch up. I notice you weren’t on that one either.
I was going to try that, but it was more than I could do, although I did enjoy the other entries.
Anonster,
I have a life outside this blog. I wrote and researched the post. Remember? I have moved on to other stories. If you would like to read more of my posts you can read this one I wrote today on my personal blog: http://rectalcancermyass.wordpress.com/2014/04/15/getting-ready-for-my-colonoscopy/
What about you? Are you fed up with the way our country is headed?…You posed this question based on this subject, in the WOT thread. I wonder what is your take after the debate in this post. Sometimes ideas make a difference, including the ones presented in blogs.
*So gang, can’t help but ask that one last rhetorical question: Is this Indian Land? Which tribe does it belong to? How much do they get of the Million Bucks that Clive Boy Bundy and his hearty band of supporters will have to come up with the stave off – the Federal Lien on his property? Just asking..you understand!
” I wrote and researched the post. Remember?”
Yeah, and a lot of what you wrote was flat out wrong ( so much for your “research” LOL ), but I guess that you don’t know and don’t care, you’ve “moved on”.
When someone writes a piece that is wildly inaccurate and never bothers to correct or even defend that position it really is just a piece of propaganda. You are anti-government, you don’t give a damn about the facts, you throw in rumor, innuendo and bullshit and call it “research”.
If you’re not willing to defend the crap you write here you shouldn’t have posting rights.
IMHO, the OJ should have higher standards.
WHY YOU SHOULD BE SYMPATHETIC TOWARD CLIVEN BUNDY
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2014/04/why-you-should-be-sympathetic-toward-cliven-bundy.php?fb_action_ids=10202826581961644&fb_action_types=og.likes
Read the whole damn thing.
WHY CLIVE BUNDY DESERVES NO SYMPATHY
“The simple truth of the matter is that Bundy is a freeloading, welfare rancher who has an inflated sense of entitlement.”
http://www.thewildlifenews.com/2014/04/14/cliven-bundy-has-no-claim-to-federal-land-and-grazing/
Read the whole damn thing.
Thanks for the post. Makes me realize Cliven Bundy really does need to be in jail. He’s a criminal against law abiding tax paying citizens.
I read the whole damn thing, and then I read this whole damn comment, nearly losing my whole damn dinner with unmitigated laughter;
“He is clearly in violation of the law, but so what?”
LOL. Yeah. These are the same people who, on many, many other issues, would be “law and order” folks. Enforce the law. There’s just one word for these people;
Hypocrites.
Skally, do you consider yourself an adherent of the “Sovereign Citizen” movement?
No – nor do I consider myself a vassal of the federal government.
He owes America $1,000,000. He’s got a few people fooled that he’s a victim but he’s not. He knew what the fees were and thought fees are for other people, not him. Hopefully Cliven will give himself up without a bloody conflict. Unfortunately he is so self-centered that he might not care if anyone else is hurt.
There is a petition to “Collect every cent deadbeat Cliven Bundy owes”
https://www.dailykos.com/campaigns/775
With all due respect, I offer an opposing view of this situation.
http://www.orangejuiceblog.com/2014/04/deadbeat-mega-rancher-how-the-right-made-asses-of-themselves-over-cliven-bundy/
I received this story this evening via my OJB email address:
http://www.libertynews.com/2014/04/harry-reid-a-chinese-green-energy-company-the-blm-and-the-cliven-bundy-ranch-the-story-you-arent-being-told/?Ref_ID=25906
Call you
http://www.juancole.com/2014/04/resembles-pakistans-taliban.html
and raise you:
http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/maddow-asks-why-do-we-overlook-right-wing-violence-and-refuse-call-it-terrorism
Occupy Wall Street was labeled domestic terrorist group…
http://www.economicpopulist.org/content/occupy-wall-street-labeled-terrorists-fbi
You were a member of Occupy … are you a domestic terrorist? (albeit our group was a watered down version from NY)… I’m betting you were under scrutiny by law enforcement, along with me and Vern…
Being called a domestic terrorist is the new way for gov to try and silence those who dare to speak up.
If Bundy owes grazing fees, the gov. can put a lien on his property… I’m sure it happens to people who don’t pay up when they lose a lawsuit all the time.
Law enforcement changed after 9/11. They have Homeland Security and local law enforcement have access to “toys” they never had before.
You’ve been to protests in Anaheim. You’ve seen snipers on rooftops. SWAT. It’s all meant to intimidate the public.
Now we have free assigned speech zones? (I am writing about this in future post soon) If we are asking permission to protest our gov. then we are screwed. We do not need permission to protest.
If people think signing an online petition will change things in Washington, I have swamp land in Florida to sell you. You were around in the 60s. People were out in the streets. 1969 was a year of turmoil. People went to jail for standing up to gov. Do you think Martin Luther King worried about staying in free speech zones?
Americans sincerely believe their representatives have the people’s best interest (and some do). But many are waking up. The reality is, those representatives are the 1% and they have no intention of giving up their status and power…not without a fight.
You mentioned earlier that third parties will never get a seat at the same table with the Dems and Repubs… I beg to differ with you. The younger generation isn’t going for it. They have a different world view. Luckily our generation will die out soon (sooner if you’re eating the SAD diet) and so will the old ways of thinking. Towing the party line is how we got in this mess.
As for the crew on MSNBC they are cheerleaders for Dems and Fox is the cheerleader for Repubs. I don’t watch that trash. CNN is still looking for a missing airplane…
Come with me to the May 10th event at UCLA. https://unitedwestandfest.com/
David Kuchinich, Marianne Williamson, Larry King among others will be there. See what you think about it.
The days of our gov using excessive force is coming to an end. Other countries won’t put up with it anymore. The military industrial complex will have to look for something else to do. The makers of weapons will have to make something else. The world is changing and people won’t put up with the status quo anymore.
The old guard is pissing all over the planet in order to make a buck. They are hoping people stay distracted by reality television and play with their tech toys. The good thing about tech is it opened communication between individuals that never would have met before. We know what’s going on in an instant. We share ideas and learn new ways to do things.
I’m guessing there are those who see this as scary. If you watch (non-mainstream) news you will see how many countries citizens are standing up to their corporate owned governments.
Wall Street did a lot of damage to the world and not one person involved went to prison. Why is that?
I’m sure there is more behind the Bundy Reid saga and eventually it will come out….
Yes I was (I’d say still am) a member of Occupy. As you know, we didn’t engage in domestic terrorism — especially the Occupy OC group, which (despite the efforts of some provocateurs) was strictly non-violent.
You know what else we didn’t do, Inge? We didn’t threaten government troops with firearms. Please consider that difference before you conclude that because we weren’t domestic terrorists, they weren’t domestic terrorists either. I’m sorry, my friend, but you’re being used by people who in other contexts you would recognize to be your enemies. The Kochs support Bundy.
By the way — what steps do you think that the government has taken to try to get Bundy to pay his over $1,000,000 in unpaid grazing fees — which constitute theft (by unfair competition) from other ranchers?
You and I obviously disagree with the way the BLM handled the situation. Nevada allows weapons to be carried in the open. Our government (actually Harry Reid) believes he has the right to call citizens domestic terrorists, Obama kills terrorists via drone strikes in other countries (if someone did that on American soil, it would be considered a declaration of war), cherry pick which federal laws it will enforce, etc.
Our government is out of control, owned by corporations and do their bidding. We have different world views. We are in the middle of a struggle for power…not just here but world wide. We shall see where we end up. The old guard is being challenged.
I’m still cringing that you would quote anything from Rachel Maddow. The only thing missing on her show, is her wearing a cheer leading outfit.
https://www.google.com/search?site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=981&bih=643&q=cheerleader+rachel+maddow&oq=cheerleader+rachel+maddow&gs_l=img.3…13233.22201.0.23158.25.21.0.4.4.0.465.2715.10j9j1j0j1.21.0….0…1c.1.41.img..12.13.1238.77SljuJagJs#facrc=_&imgrc=VfArOHe6nYqV-M%253A%3BxamVmAKa2JeLPM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.libertyfirstnews.com%252Fwp-content%252Fuploads%252F2014%252F01%252Fobamas_cheerleaders.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.libertyfirstnews.com%252Frachel-maddow-flips-out-when-she-is-called-an-obama-cheerleader%252F%3B575%3B411
I don’t believe that Inge really thinks about these issues as much as she reacts to them. That makes her easy prey for the reactionary crazies out there. Anger often clouds judgement.
For instance, the story she links to has all sorts of qualifiers and completely ignores the fact that the BLM and Bundy have been at odds since 1993, predating Harry Reid’s son and any chinese solar plant.
anonster, I know that you value your anonymity, but part of the price of it ought to be that you don’t take potshots at the cognitive abilities of someone who is writing under their own name. Your second paragraph is fine by that standard; your first one — putting aside whether you have any basis for it — is character assassination from the shadows. I know that you’d see it as such if it came from the right towards the Left.
For the record, I disagree with Inge about this (and some other things), but I think that she does us an invaluable service here by pointing out how someone representative of a lot of people in OC (and beyond) view these issues. I’m stricken by some of the things she says at times like this, but I’m glad to hear them, because there are hell of a lot of other people out there — largely NPPs — likely saying them to their friends (including as they discuss their upcoming votes.) I’d rather face the discomfort of reading such views now, from someone I like, than being blindsided by them later. The Obama Administration should have her placed on a permanent focus group — because people who see the world as she does are swing votes — and obviously, justifiably or not, we’re losing some of them. Yelling at Inge won’t change that.
*Did we say we love Inge…a patriot and a fighter like Long John Silver and Sheriff John…for sure. We also love Pat Hayden and OJ…is that enough?
Sorry Greg, but I disagree. I don’t think it’s unfair to point out that Inge isn’t really thinking this issue through. I think that its obvious that Inge is angry at the government and seems more than willing to embrace any negative narrative that reinforces that view.
Yeah, she represents a perspective; both parties are the same, everyone’s corrupt, … yada, yada, yada. Not exactly new or earth shattering, but whatever. Never let it be said that anonster deprived the OJ readers of her “unique” viewpoint, harumph and goodbye.
“I don’t think it’s unfair to point out that Inge isn’t really thinking this issue through”
That was the appropriate way to do that in case you were wondering.
I disagree with the substance of the comment and I dislike agreeing with anonster – however, I believe he/she/it is correct in this case. It is hardly “character assassination from the shadows” to describe someone as “not thinking things through.”
That being said (I hate that phrase) – I think we can cut Greg some slack – he has some heavy shit on his mind right now.
I presume that you know that that wasn’t a demand for you to leave the site, but that you not attack someone personally (as opposed to attacking their arguments) under cloak of anonymity. And if you think that Inge’s viewpoint is “unique,” you’re not reading the polls. I disagree with significant aspects of it, but it’s increasingly common.
There was so much BS slung around in this one it was hard for a lot of folks the find a handle on the truth of it.
It was a violation of Posse Comitatus by Federal stormtroopers.
Did it fall within the scope of the Insurrection Act?