Many people will have already seen this, but some won’t have — and everyone should. This is Zimmerman Juror B-29, who for some time was the only holdout against acquittal. Her name is Maddy, she’s of Puerto Rican ancestry, she’s a Certified Nurses Assistant and a mother of eight — and she feels very badly that, in ultimately agreeing that the law required her to vote to let Zimmerman “get away with murder,” she let both him and his parents down.
I like this woman based on what she said. And I can both understand and sympathize with her belief that she had to vote for acquittal because the law simply didn’t apply otherwise. (If the law didn’t apply, that was largely due to the judge’s jury instructions, which were themselves as they were largely due to the fact that the prosecution made Zimmerman’s defense case for him by introducing hearsay evidence that would exculpate him without requiring him to take the stand.) But there’s one line of argument in her explanation that deeply disturbed me.
She invoked God as the basis for her decision.
ABC interviewer Robin Roberts asked her this: “Did you feel that you were bullied?”
She replied: “I trust God that I wasn’t bullied.”
I don’t think that one should trust God that one wasn’t bullied, especially on a jury with the outspoken aspiring author Juror B-37. For whatever purpose, God seems to allow bullying to occur.
Later, Roberts asked her if she had regrets that she didn’t make it a hung jury. After hesitating, she said: “kind of.” She then expressed her sympathy and empathy for Trayvon’s parents.
Roberts then asked her how she would answer those critics who say that “George Zimmerman got away with murder.” She eventually said it herself, but she didn’t stop there.
George Zimmerman got away with murder. But you can’t get away from God. And at the end of the day, he’s going to have a lot of questions and answers he has to deal with. The law couldn’t prove it; we just have to believe in the Lord that if he’s asked to pay, he will pay.
As I sometimes note here, I am unfashionably religious, although other than my beliefs falling within the broadly inclusive general frame of Reform Judaism I don’t take part in organized religion. But I think that those views, comforting and quintessentially human as they are, have no place in a court proceeding, especially in a jury box.
While I believe that there is a God — not an embodied and personalized Zeus-like thunderbolt throwing God, but someone not of this earth and surely beyond human understanding that imbues our reality with morality and purpose — I think that if there’s one thing we can conclude about God it is that God did not want to make God’s own existence too obvious. God left room for subjective free will — and thus for doubt. Rather than being a flaw in the system, I see that as a core feature of the system. And the corollary I draw from that is: you’re supposed to act as if there is morality and purpose in life, but that there is no afterlife in which individuals are rewarded or punished for what they do here.
(A side note: If there is a personalized afterlife, which I like to imagine but tend to doubt, I suspect that the only rewards and punishments would be satisfaction at having acted morally and shame at not having done so. But my own suspicion is that an afterlife would involve a return to the cosmic Ocean of Soul in which all human experience may be recorded and reviewed.)
You may or may not agree with my take on religion, but I will submit this to you: the belief that no individual reward or punishment follows us after death should be our civic equivalent of religion — adopted at least for the sole purpose of making decisions in criminal cases. One should not be able to take heart in the notion of divine justice after we die — because despite our individual beliefs we do not know individually or (more important) collectively that it does exist. We cannot give ourselves that out.
If a belief in divine justice is what kept Juror B-29, this fine woman placed into a difficult and stressful situation, from deciding that she would hang the jury, then she should have hung the jury. In the legal system, we should take no comfort in the belief, no matter how deeply felt, that someone or something else will perform the task of deciding guilt or innocence that has been assigned, by law, to us.
This shunting aside the responsibility for making a decision to God happens with sufficient frequency that I wish that a standard jury instruction could be crafted to tell jurors explicitly not to do it. That’s the kind of proposal, however, that I expect would not make it through many trial courts.
This is your more serious than usual Weekend Open Thread. Talk about this or anything else you wish, within broad bounds of decency and decorum. Your weekly Dearthwatch, charting what was until this week incessant decline of the online presence of the OC Register, appears below.
I think many people like to throw their personal responsibility over to “God”… I think it makes them FEEL better. Didn’t Zimmerman claim that the ‘incident’ was God’s Will? Did “God” side with Zimmerman or Trayvon? And why? Let me go further by positing nations’ claiming that “God” is on their side. President Obama says it. Middle East leaders say it. They ALL claim God is on their side. Why would She be on anyone’s side? Don’t we have Free Will?
How many funerals have you been at where the minister tries to sell Jesus to the crowd? How many times have you heard “God wanted him home”?… when it was clear that the dead person mixed alcohol with prescription drugs resulting in his death? It is not logical BUT so many people pull the God Card when the going gets tough and they don’t want to face it. This woman clearly feels guilty. So to help herself cope with her verdict, she throws it on God’s shoulders.
And both jurors said their instructions were confusing. Why didn’t someone stand up to the judge and say we need clarification? Someone did ask about manslaughter but the judge threw it back in their court.
“when the going gets tough”…like being tortured, when there are no words to describe the pain…or when a loved one is dying…
yes, Ricardo precisely… and your point is?
Under conditions of duress one may invoke God for comfort, and in religious ceremony it is expected that references to God/Jesus be made. What does your example of the dead person mixing alcohol with prescription drugs have to do with the Juror invoking God on her decision?
I agree with your thrust questioning the role of religion as a moral code governing our conduct. Your best piece on this subject is the one about the City of Lancaster and prayers before City Council meetings, but as Anon has made the point before, your generalized views against religion comes across as a rant.
Regardless of our understanding of the causes and purpose of the universe, religion provides an explanation and a moral code for many people. I get your point about the bigoted expression of religion, but there is also a significant tolerant and humanitarian tradition, that you fail to recognize and respect. See the link below.
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/07/will-the-religious-left-become-the-new-moral-majority/278086/
What I wrote is fact. Evangelicals are trying their very best to force those of us who do not believe their religious views to live under their laws. Morality has nothing to do with religion. Ask the Catholic Church who hides priests who molest children. How many atheists or Humanists blow themselves up, like Radical Islamists? Morality is not about doing good in order to get a place in Heaven. Its about doing the right thing. Period.
Moderate and liberal Christians put up with the radicals without realizing that the radicals see them as Satan worshippers too. Evangelicals are dangerous and if they can get away with it they will kill you in the name of God. How many abortion clinics have they blown up? how many abortion doctors have they killed in the name of God? Evangelicals see those who do not believe like them are possessed by Satan. These same nutcases want to know what you are doing in your bedroom, if you are LBGT, and are behind all attacks on women’s reproductive rights.
It would be great if these religious nuts kept their beliefs to themselves but part of their dogma requires them to tell anyone and everyone their “Good News”. What if I went around telling them that God is a myth? Or I prefer to worship Zeus? Evangelicals claimed Mormonism is a cult. They ridiculed Romney for believing the Mormon teachings, but they believe their own creation myth without question.
I gave the example of the drug over dosed dead guy as an example because religious people say over and over “God called him home” instead of facing reality.
These same people want Creationism taught in schools, teach abstinence in place of real sex education, they have zero tolerance for other religious groups (lawsuit in san Diego over yoga classes…they lost); refute global warming, etc. I am willing to bet the majority don’t know what’s in the Bible. They cherry pick parts that suit them, like the gay issue…what about killing your neighbor if they work on the Sabbath? They hate abortion but have no problem denying food or health programs for kids. Can you say hypocrite?
And they believe that crap because they are told if they don’t they go to Hell. How gullible can one be? Who cares if religious left will be moral majority. It doesn’t make God any more a reality.
Now that’s a rant!
Skally wants to know if this is the weekend open thread.
Well .. is it?
For many people, yes.
…cuz he read some crazy shit on breitbart.com that he’s just GOTTA share with us!
Speaking of propaganda, why are you still linking to Willis’s blog? It appears to be defunct.
Now if you want to be entertained by the crazy local nutters on the right you have to go to Hirota’s blog. That is some major CRAZY shit.Too bad no one EVER comments or probably even reads it, but really, that much insanity in one place deserves its own soundtrack.
Insane in the membrane
Insane in the brain!
Insane in the membrane
Insane in the brain!
Now if you want to be entertained by the crazy local nutters on the left you have to go to this site or mslsd
Greg,
You and I agree on the this issue almost completely, if I read your thoughts correctly about how jurors make decisions. Secular law, secular courts, a secular govt. There are HUGE problems whenever anyone interjects their “god” into law or govt codes.
The thing we do disagree about are the actual provable facts in the case, sans emotion and hyperbole, along with due consideration of Florida’s actual laws, as written, even absent jury instructions or poor legal representation on both sides, I still think that it was a no win case. There was simply too much “reasonable” doubt to obtain a conviction that would have stood up under Florida law. It doesn’t matter if you agree or disagree with the law as written, just like patients, you get them as they are.
“You have to watch her, not just read her words, to pick up her meaning. As she struggles to answer, she looks as though she’s trying to reconcile the sentiment that’s been quoted to her–that Zimmerman “got away with murder”–with her own perspective. So she repeats the quote and adds words of her own, to convey what she thinks: that there’s a justice higher than the law, which Zimmerman will have to face. She thinks he’s morally culpable, not legally guilty.”
Bottom line…I doubt George Zimmerman will ever look at a black man walking down the street at night and assume that he’s a criminal.
One less ignorant, knee-jerk profiler in the world.
Another trial coming up re: SYG law in Florida
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/27/loud-music-leads-to-murder_n_2200708.html
Atencion salseros: the Spanish Harlem Orchestra performs LIVE!
Sunday, July 28, 2013 at the Museum of Latin American Art in Long Beach!
“Spanish Harlem Orchestra … is a forceful, finely tuned ensemble of alumni from the great salsa bands of Tito Puente, Ray Barretto, Willie Colon, Hector Lavoe, Ruben Blades and others.” LA TIMES
http://www.molaa.org
regardless of what any juror says now, which, to a large extent is something akin to buyer’s remorse, i stand with the great black spiritual leader, sir charles barkley, who said that the verdict was correct. if the round mound of rebound, and future governor of alabama, is happy, who are we to complain
She should have hung the jury, but the peer pressure and the interpretation of the law, kept her from doing so. That religion has no place in court proceeding should be obvious, but I understand her invocation to God as the basis for her decision, from a cultural perspective. Spanish and Portuguese colonizers imposed their version of religion on our indigenous population, eliminating the critical thinking features of Aztecs, Mayas, Mapuches and the many more first inhabitants’ religious expressions.
It is common among Latinos on today’s daily language to refer to God from mundane to complex actions: vaya con dios; dios mediante, gracias a dios, encomiendo a dios, and so on. The more educated, meaning the more informed we get, we apply non-religious explanations to events, and become more responsible of our decisions.
Madre de los ocho…no más hablas. Ella quiere casa y trabajando. Necesito trabajar con ocho bocas de hambre. Vaya con Dios Latina descendamos.
???? What do her eight children have to do with her decision?
The rough translation of Anon a Las Dos is : mother of eight…you’re just talking. She wants a home and work. She needs to work with eight hungry kids…
I agree with Ricardo on this one…what does her eight kids have to do with it? Unless (I don’t know, I don’t read Spanish) the commenter meant that the jurors were sequestered and they were losing money from not working? If that is the reason then she should have claimed hardship and couldn’t be away from work that long…I am guessing murder trials will take longer than most…look at the Jodie Arias trail…four months (at least) but the jury could go home.
english only
*Let’s put it this way: Many selected ….few are chosen. Jury members? These are the folks that can’t get out of jury duty or don’t have any opinion on anything! Should ANY of the lovely folks that make their voices heard here on the OC Juice were to serve on the Zimmerman Jury……the best that Zimmerman could have hoped for would be “A Hung Jury”. B-29 didn’t understand basic law….or she would have told all her fellow jurers: Zimmerman push the action and is responsible for the death. Just that simple….jury instructions up the wahzoo……or not. What is the worse that would have happened? The County would have to pay for another trial….right? “As the law was explained to me…” By who B-29? The Judge? B-35? Give it up. But its OK, instead of Justice received…..Justice has been denied and it may take 10 years to fix it, but that will allow Mark O’Mera all those paid days on the O’Reilly Factor.
…..Justice has been denied what is justice getting the verdict you wanted . he went on trial only after the race baiters kept yelling to go to trial AFTER THE 1ST D.A SAID their is no case here . so they pushed it and lost and now tried to go after him on civil rights charges
Pisco time:
Some of Greg’s recent posts give the impression that he is unfairly picking on Latinos. The focus on the Puerto Rican sister’s references to God, gave Inge another opportunity to lecture us about how evil religion is. Somebody else made negative references to being a mother of eight children…in the meantime Greg is attending concerts and leave these opinions unchallenged…like in the Voice of OC.
He has also been picking on Gustavo, calling him weird names like “libertarian” and that he is “on the make”…If Greg keeps picking on Gustavo, I am going to create a real alternative group to “Los Amigos”. I am going to call this group “Los Compadres de Orange County”, no wait … to be politically correct it will be named “ Compadres y Comadres”, and our LBGT friends will be welcome to choose either compadre or comadre categories. The first presidente of this group will be Duane, so Gustavo will have to vote for Luis J. Rodriguez for Governor, no excuses now.
We will invite Greg to join, although he is a gabacho, he is married to an immigrant. First though he will have to take Rusty Kennedy’s classes on cultural sensitivity, and because these classes are not effective, he will have to read the entire editions of “Ask a Mexican” and learn how to be really sensitive to Latinos. This will teach him! If he keeps picking on us, then we will five him another test. He will have to participate in our Lucha Libre sessions, he will be called Greg El Diamante Falso. There is already a desafio from our Aztlan fighter, Gabe, to face Diamante.
I am not the only one upset at Greg. You may remember my friend Dora La Lora, she was a big fan of Greg, until somebody told him to cut the length of his posts down, that the tree was falling…since then Dora has to get her sleeping pills from Canada again. She also got scared with Jose S, who told her to stop her chola act, and this Jose means business, he is the guy who wants to have somebody get Zimmerman (There are so many Joses, that I loose track what Jose we are talking about). Also Vern was trying to get Dora’s phone number…he is a wannabe Latino, as he says that his ancestors were from Mexico…chingado, my Pisco time is becoming chisme times. I’d better give up, I will not never match Gustavo’s fame as a writer…which is good… I will not ever be nominated for the “scariest person of the year”…in my proposed “Compadres/Comadres” group we will have the baboso of the year, and I may nominate myself….as a Groucho Marx admirer…Buenas noches!
Fables aside, Ricardo, it’s really not such a good idea to eat the worm.
*Ricky, invite Greg to the your next invited Mexican Wedding. You should see his authentic Mariachi Tux and sombrero. Ask him to wear the powder blue….it is very stylish. We will just wait in the car, if someone brings us some Mexican Wedding Cookies to sustain us….throughout the ceremony – until the dancing begins!
Ricardo is Chilean. (Hide the mayonnaise!)
*Do you know the way to Santiago?
The pregnancy of an 11-year-old in Chile, raped by her mother’s boyfriend, has reignited the call for legal abortion. A march was organized by pro-choice advocacy groups. In another event, a 16 years old, her older sister and her mother were among demonstrators and advocates for the decriminalization of abortion in the Metropolitan Cathedral of Santiago where Archbishop Ricardo Ezzati headed a homily. “Free my lips!” read a sign and together, the three women sang: “Take your rosaries away from our ovaries!”
Incidents to the interior of the Church lasted for about 30 minutes. During all that time, faithful and abortion advocates exchanged blows and screams. It was all noise, cries, shoves, chairs flying and even some protesters climbed above altars hanging posters or graffiti, according to some witnesses. Monsignor Ezzati calmly asked attendees to retreat with tranquility.
http://www.santiagotimes.cl/chile/human-rights-a-law/26508-chilean-march-latest-display-of-outrage-over-child-rape-case
Is this the weekend open thread?
Is the OJB recycling the previous week’s WOT to conserve pixels/electricity due to the closure of SONGS?