.
President Obama has released his take on the Sandy Hook Massacre, the Aurora Massacre and the 900 folks that have perished since that fateful day in Newtown, Connecticut. The President was calm, decisive and direct. Vice President Joe Biden and brain trust have come up with a variety of issues were are directed at addressing some “Corrective Action” to School yard and the mentally deranged in our society. Interestingly, a requirement for a Federal Background Check for ALL transfers of firearms is one of the three center pieces described. Here in California, that requirement is already in place. The 2nd issue is so-called High Capacity Magazines that exceed 10 rounds – also a regulated item in California. The 3rd issue; Return to 1994, only this time a much stiffer Ban on all so-called Assault Firearms or the Military equivalent. The other 19 or 20 issues the President addressed included a study by the National Institute of Health regarding the effect of violent video games on members of society.
President Obama and Vice President Biden brought some young children to the Press Conference that had written letters asking for solutions to firearm violence. Members of the families of the victims of Sandy Hook were in attendance. It was an obvious emotional appeal to the nation that “stricter control and transfer of firearms” was something that the Congress needed to act upon. The pre-emptive strike by the NRA and a more or less black and white television ad touting images of the Mayor Bloomberg, Senator Diane Feinstein and the President and Vice President saying that all of them protected their children with armed guards and that they were hypocrites to the max. As usual, in its zealous attempt to defend gun rights – the NRA failed to take the high road as well.
With the likes of Wolf Blitzer and Pier Morgan stamping their feet in disgust about “Assault Weapons” and “who needs a 30 round clip to kill a deer?” – the rhetorical demonization of firearm owners is not only sickening, but totally a cartoon of reason and logic. Wolf and Piers seem closer to understanding the shooters mentality in Aurora and Newtown than any responsible gun owner in America or elsewhere. What is purely diabolical and terribly despicable is having Wolf and Piers bring on the family members of the victims of these tragedies and asking them: “Do you think there should be an Assault Weapons Ban?”. First of all what would you expect them to say: “Oh goodness no……gunning down my five year old was just jolly Piers! We finally got the whole family together for the funeral!” The best one is of course: “Who needs an automatic weapon with a 100 rounds?” (Maybe, some of our guys in Afghanistan…perhaps!” Except they only get two 30 round magazines banana clipped together….to defend themselves from the Al-Qaeda or Taliban!)
If you want to know the technical capabilities of any firearm – you need to ask those that either use them every day – soldiers in the field or armorers that repair and fix those firearms. 2ndly, there only fully automatic firearms legally owned in the United States require a special license from the BATF. All of these firearms must have 24/7 availability to Federal Law Enforcement. The number is very limited and very restrictive. Most fully automatic firearms have either been stolen from legitimate sources or brought in to the United States illegally. The number actually used in criminal activities is beyond miniscule.
Plainly, the Congress will be challenged to create a fully functional National Identification System for every firearm transaction. As we all might recall, just the backlog for identifying all the Amnesty Citizens from back in the 80’s took years. Luckily, the technology has changed and being able to identify, accept, log in, store and fully vet the potential buyer…may take much longer than will be acceptable. Ramping up the system, on a state by state basis will be the best way to move the system along, rather than trying to fully implement the system over night! There isn’t a guarantee that the Congress will go along with Universal Background Checks, but if they do there will be blowback from Police and Law Enforcement Officers and Officials that will not want to be included in the law. Additionally, family members of gun owners that pass away will be placed in a compromising situation. Executors of Estates where literally hundreds of guns are part of the assets included or part of a trust of some sort – the complexities may become not only very expensive but onerous through connecting all the dots to make the transactions legal….even to a direct family member or friend. These types of transactions will also be lobbying to be excluded from the UBC.
The decision that an arbitrary number of 10 should be the limit for firearm magazines is also quite short sighted. .22 Caliber plinking rifles and BB guns and Pellet Guns should probably not be included in this ban. The number of questions that follow this type of restriction will certainly cause more problems than have been initially suggested. What do you do about the existing magazines in circulation and those that will be imported illegally – much as drugs are now? Will pure possession become suddenly a Federal felony, misdemeanor or infraction? What might the Federal punishment be for possession…not used in any known crime or malfeasance? The complexities will grow and create more criminals of currently responsible gun owners that had been thought possible before the passage of these types of technical-mechanical laws. It would be much akin to banning Ferrari Sports Cars because they are too fast and who needs to go 220MPH? Does pure possession without driving the vehicle on the road, indicate wrong doing – suitable for a Federal Penalty and ban?
The details have yet to be fully vetted of what the President will implement by Executive Order and what the Department of Justice is prepared to go after based on those Orders. What will be the cost of these things? What will be the benefits? Who will be saved? Who will track whether the new laws are effective both in the short and long term? What should a responsible firearms owner do?
We understand that emotional, non logical arguments are all part and parcel of the Gun environment in America. We understand that the Piers Morgan’s – lost in his innate Englishness……will never grasp the value of folks with firearms that can defend their home or in some cases – their castles….here in the United States. The United States has 300 million folks that are a melting pot of ethnic diversity. We are not a largely homogeneous small country such as Canada, Australia or England. Our problems in the United States vary as much as the streets of downtown Detroit to rolling hills in the Gold Country of California. As usual, we believe that these issues are not National….they are State issues that require State Laws. The recent passage of onerous gun laws in the State of New York are of course, their right. If they wish later to overturn their immediate emotional response – they can. Not so, if these laws become Federal edicts.
California, already has many of these laws in place and if Federal Enforcement will enhance these laws and put the Mentally Deficit, Drug Users, Prior Felons, Brutal Killers or the like from getting their hands on any firearms – we are fully in accord. Making Police and other sworn officers of the law, Bureaucrats and Elected Officials become willing in their cooperation to participate in the UBC process – will make any system as unbearable for them as it does for the Law Abiding Citizen Civilians that will be inconvenienced for absolutely no probable cause and no reason – other than being the owner of a firearm.
Finally, the configuration of any firearm has nothing to do with its lethality! The caliber and most importantly are its ability to hit the target that someone may be shooting at. There is little doubt….that the wholesale emotional brohaha of the media….has absolutely nothing to do with saving lives at the end of the trail.
“Right the Night Train….High…on Cocaine! Listen now Mister…..what’s your scheme? Trouble ahead and trouble behind…….”….we will wait and see!
Really interesting proposals.
Standard service weapon of the Secret Service: 12 or 20 rounds, LAPD 15 rounds, NYPD 15 rounds, FBI 13-15 rounds.
Almost all local police departments stock a version of the AR-15.
Well, which is it? Do these magazines and weapons deter crime or enable it? If the later, why are we allowing hundreds of them to be carried loaded in our communities?
Not to poke the bear too much, but this is a pretty obvious double standard. You (citizen with rights) can’t protect yourself in your own home with the same weapons we (government with no rights) use on the street against the same criminal?
*There is a point of intensification RC……that is a very important Catch-22
that needs to be rectified. When Sworn Police, Bureaucrats, ALL Electeds and others…such as Fire and Utility Workers are not required to follow the law…what you have is a two-tiered elitism. “Do as I as say….not as I do!” well comes to mind. Either every citizen is required to follow the law or you have an immediate opportunity for cronyism, pay-offs and abuse of the system by almost anyone. Also, a tremendous lack of traceabilty. Let’s pretend there is one bad cop out of thousands that nabs someone takes their gun and either keeps it for himself or gives it to a friend or other criminal.
In any event, if we are going to make laws….shouldn’t there be an equal protection clause as well as enforcement? If a TCA Officers sells, trades or gives his service firearm to anyone……how do you trace that?
If cars were banned, the crazies would need to take a bus, and the bus driver would tell them that their bag of guns are not allowed on the bus. Problem solved.
…You know that notion, just crossed my mind.
Greg Your turn.
You posted a top-level comment so I don’t know what you’re referring to.
Once again Obama did not failed my diabolical expectations.
Galvanizing patriots, is an essential element for the civil war.
Anybody noticed that Osama is dead, GM too and Al Qaeda is life every where and today in Algeria, Killing 3, Holding Dozens Captive, Including Americans?
Stanley
Your constant references to “civil war” is disturbing. Civil war, and any war, is a terrible, horrible event. We are fortunate to live in a Democracy, where we can disagree without having to kill each other. Please think about the awful implications of civil wars.
Hunter S. Thompson:
” When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.”
Look at what Stanley writes, what Rambo writes, and what sort of weird ads the NRA gives us.
It’s just a small segment of the population that is making a lot of noise. Most of America thinks that it’s time to do something about gun control.
I’m all for galvanizing the paranoid would-be mass murderers that you call “patriots,” Stanley. And if we can’t cover them with zinc we can use aluminum or tin.
I think the one thing we can all agree on is this is a hot button issue. That being said, I don’t think Obama went far enough. I say anyone who chooses to own these weapons will be criminally charged with negligence or involuntary manslaughter if their weapon is used in any crime. I really don’t care if its stolen or used by a relative. Anyone buying ammo needs a license and it needs to be renewed. We have to buy a license to fish, so they can buy a license to buy ammo.
Anyone who compares assault rifles to cars is an idiot. We buy cars to drive. People buy guns to shoot either targets, animals and these days people. If someone says they need an assault rifle to hunt…I say if they can’t shoot a deer with a rifle then they need to go back to the target range.
We all know the real reason these gun nuts want guns…they believe the government is out to get them. Do they really think they can “outgun” the government? Who are they kidding besides themselves?
Mother Jones wrote an excellent article “outing” the NRA and all its players and conflict of interest. You can read it here…http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/01/nra-board-newtown-bushmaster
Once again…its all about the money. The NRA is in bed with gun manufacturers. They love to spread the lies that Obama is taking away their guns and those gun enthusiasts lap it up like obedient puppy dogs. This is nothing new. When Obama was elected in 2008, gun sales went up. They are a bunch of knuckle dragging yahoos who are scared of anyone who looks different, especially if they are black!
We shall see if Congress does anything about this. I’m not holding my breath.
“Anyone who compares assault rifles to cars is an idiot. We buy cars to drive.”
I think that’s a bit short sighted.
Some of us buy cars to drive– to get to work or school, run errands and buy food. Some of us buy cars to go fast, show off, and put the public at large at risk.
Doesn’t seem that far off the mark.
Also, going way back because I think it’s a related argument . . . 20 kids are dead this year because of the flu. 458 since 2009.
Get a flu shot.
I am feeling just fine thank you for your concern though. 20 out of 300 million??? Alert the media! Oh, they already did. I’m not the only one who refuses the flu shot…http://foodbabe.com/2011/10/04/should-i-get-the-flu-shot/
want to strengthen your immune system naturally?
http://foodbabe.com/2011/10/06/siri-how-do-i-boost-my-immune-system/
Yes, 20 out of millions. 20 is too many. Your capriciousness is appalling.
My mistake. 29 now, which exceeds the event that precipitated this discussion.
To borrow a very insensitive and inappropriate line from the current debate: “Whose child has to be next?”
Get the shot.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/50506640/ns/health-cold_and_flu#.UPmZAB3O1mg
Inge, I wonder how many of the people that died from the flu, had already gotten the flu shot ?
Did you know that there is a National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program administered by U.S. Department of Health and Human Services? It’s not hard to imagine why this program is needed.
“Once again…its all about the money. The NRA is in bed with gun manufacturers”
Inge….you know we love you, but who else would you have the NRA in bed with? The Brady Center?
What is so very bothersome is when these horrible tradegies occur….everyone becomes a “firearms expert”. Have you ever fired ANY type of Assault Firearm in your life? Do you know the extent of the limitations and capacities?
OK, ever driven Harley Hog or Ninja Motorcycles……that can go 160 MPH? If you want to know what dangerous is – try that sometime. How many folks get scraped off the pavement every year and either kill themselves of others due to irresponsible behavior?
Exactly the same with firearms. There are responsible owners of Fast Cars, Motorcycles, Firearms, Knives and Household Chemicals…..and there are many that are not. So, allowing your three year old to climb into your kitchen sink cabinet and drink Drano…is not responsible …..so, are you going to ban
Drano?
The folks that have killed in all of these mass shootings are all considered Mental Cases. They are the same folks that try and burn down their old high schools or Family Planning clinic. They are beyond help. Brevick, the Norweigen Killer and Oslo Bomber was the most regulated owner of firearms ever. How many did he kill?
Look, the time has come to create a National Universal Instant Background Check….but for EVERY firearm transfer – There can be NO Exemptions because you are a Police Officer or an Elected Politician. NO EXEMPTIONS. Right now the NCIS keeps the records just 15 days. The new rules make that period 30 days. In truth, the record of the transfer should probably be about
90 days….in case they have nutcases out there are planning shooting or bombing someone.
The hardest thing for folks that suffer from “Fear of Firearms” to grasp is: ONE bullet is just as dangerous as 1000. The lies abound out there. The guy from the Brady Center on C-Span today said that some one could empty a 30 round AR-15 magazine in 5 seconds. Try this yourself. Put your finger out….look at a second hand and try to pull your finger back 30 times in the shortest possible time…..without a gun of course. The actually time it takes (without a gun) is about 10 seconds. With an AR-14 about 12 seconds.
The 2nd issue which people with a “Fear of Firearms” have a tough time to think about and get a grip on – Is how sick people like the Aurora killer and the Newtown killer….with all their Mental Problems could get a hold of firearms.
Great question…..let’s do something about that and the Violent Videos games that every one of these Mass killers were addicted too!
“Have you ever fired ANY type of Assault Firearm in your life? Do you know the extent of the limitations and capacities?”
So let’s look at your logic here Casey, because I think your train has come off of the tracks.
So you’re saying that because Inge has never fired a gun, and has never felt the kick of a .50 cal, that her opinion and vote on whether or not a 30 round magazine, or assault rifles, should be allowed?
By that logic, that means that because she has never twisted back the throttle on a crotch rocket that she shouldn’t have a say about the speed limit?
That means that because You have never felt the kick of a fetus inside your birth canal that You should have no say on abortion rights?
Could you please tell that to your male Republican friends, and just stick to giving us your opinion on fapping?
I agree that making people strictly liable for the use of their guns in the wrong hands may be part of a solution.
Aren’t they?
Seems hard to believe that we’ve done that with Pit Bulls but not firearms.
To my knowledge, they are not. That would include guns that are stolen. If you want a gun at home, you should be willing to make sure that it is absolutely secure. The analogy to pit bills doesn’t really work — who steals them to use in crimes?
Strict liability. No “one bite free” rule for pit bulls.
*Late news from the news room…..Assemblyman Alan Mansoor has introduced a bill to protect the identity of all firearms owners. Sadly, we have not had this before. This should be a National Law as well. Putting gunowners in the same catagory as Child Molestors is ludicruous. The big brohaha by the release of the gunowners located in Connecticut (The newspaper that showed all the red dots!) was certainly an invasion of privacy – in the least.
Only, law enforcement with a probably cause should have access to those records.
I could see myself agreeing with you there, Ron, but I’d need to hear more counterargument.
Once more the media and politicians have engaged in mental masturbation instead of making any real attempt at rational analyses of the problems or any meaningful solutions to those problems and all to the tune of an estimated half a BILLION dollars. It might make some of you feel better, but any illusion of safety you get from it is truly meaningless in the real world and way too expensive.
Ok, now that I got your heart rate up, I have a news flash for you, I want to make the world a safer, better place to live too. Don’t get on my case about how I don’t care, or whatever other fecal mater you want to throw up on the wall to see if it sticks. I want to stop the evil bastards that shoot and kill and maim without social conscience too. We just disagree about how to get there and what freedoms I will or will not give up on the “alter of public safety.” I respect all religious beliefs so long as I am not required or mandated to participate in them with you. Please do believe what you wish, it is your Right to do so. I will defend to my death, your Right to do so. I prefer to discuss factual information and not belief or emotions.
None of the items outlined today by POTUS or VP Biden, would have stopped the tragedy at Sandy Hook, none of them! They probably wouldn’t have stopped ANY of the other nutcase shootings that the nation has been plagued with over the last couple of decades. They are only stepping stones to the regulation and registration of firearms to law abiding citizens, those 99.9%+ of us who try to live within the law and these days that isn’t all that easy any more.
Most who fear firearms, do so because they know little about them. I’m not putting you down, it’s just the truth. The vast majority of city dwellers have NO idea about what is or isn’t a high power, mid or a lower power round. Only if it looks ugly and dangerous it must be a killer. Emotions over facts, it’s a very poor methodology for making judgments or solving problems. Sorry, but I feel obligated to confuse you with some facts.
The Second Amendment isn’t about hunting or “sporting purposes” as many of you would like to suggest or insist. Neither of those reasons have anything to do with firearms ownership being an enumerated Right. The very firearms that are being targeted are the very type of weapons protected by the Second Amendment, which says nothing about ducks or deer. Where that mythology came from I still don’t understand. If the very firearms protected by the Second Amendment are outlawed, what Right does the Second Amendment confirm?
If gun control really worked places like Washington DC, Chicago and New York City would be some of the safest places in the nation. They aren’t safer by any standard of measurement. As well SCOTUS has answered the question that the Second Amendment does in point of fact confer an enumerated and preexisting Right to all citizens, in all states and districts. The last point is still working its way through the federal appellate system right now but seems to be holding traction. It’s certainly conceivable that the Supreme Court will be required to deal with more details (again) shortly on this point especially with the current political debate. I see it happening at a quicker pace after yesterday in NY and then today. I know you may not like that, but deal with it, it is reality. I have to as well. BTW we pay a lot of taxes on firearms and ammo right now that’s buried in the ever escalating prices.
Total number of homicides committed with ALL rifles 576 (2010) sourced from CDC. Number of deaths estimated, this last week, in a speech by Bill Clinton, in healthcare, from medical misadventure and accidents, over 200,000 per year! That’s an average of 547 per day, PER DAY! So where’s the public outrage? Simply, the media hasn’t fanned the flames and the zealots aren’t out pushing it. Doctors, nurses and the medical field in general make poor villains in their whites or greens. Besides we know it truly is accidental and they really are trying to help us. You want to make the world a better, safer place, as we all do, that would be a much more logical place to start demanding real change. I fear that in the next few years this is going to be a much bigger public health issue. One that we should all be paying a great deal more attention to, make the media look into that! Please!
The media does a great job of sensationalizing and a very poor job of real fact finding and reporting factual information on what is really going on with these shootings. There are loads of websites that claim they are ALL on anti-depressants and that is the real cause of this type of behavior. Is it really true? I don’t know, frankly it makes more sense to look into that aspect and the responsibilities to society that should be the overriding concern of those in the mental health community. Since many, if not all of these folks who committed these acts, were under the active care of professionals, that’s why they had access to these drugs, right? It seems we have a massive failure in the mental health community that needs to be addressed before anything else is even considered. Seems to me you want to address the cause of the violence, right?
(What? Another failure by the medical community that isn’t being addressed again… I see a pattern here.)
“Assault weapons” (AR-15, 5.56mm/.223 Rem.) may look scary and deadly, but were designed NOT TO KILL! They were designed to wound in the battlefield, NOT KILL! U.S. Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara presented wounding ability as a reason for adoption of the M16 (military full auto version of the AR-15 rifle) over the M14 (.308 cal) as a question of battlefield efficiency – “that it is better to wound an adversary than kill him.” It takes more resources and time to care for the wounded than the dead. Another major factor was the ability to carry more rounds of smaller caliber ammo into the field and fully automatic firing of a smaller caliber weapon at a closer range was seen to score more hits on the enemy than the long range aimed strategy employed by the army at the time. This point is still being debated in military circles. The biggest complaint with the current M4 is that it isn’t as effective as some would like in a battlefield rifle. It’s not a “high powered” round, I don’t care who claims it is.
The AR-15 platform rifle has become so popular because it has a modular construction that lends itself to customizing and adding accessories that make it more accurate to fire, it has little recoil, since it’s such a low powered cartridge and is easy to shoot. Besides it’s fun, accurate and isn’t going to beat you up after a day at the range. It’s effective on targets, and small game, but not legal for big game hunting in most (any that I know, but maybe somewhere) states because it’s only .223” in diameter and considered to be too small and ineffective, to be efficient at humanly killing big game. It’s one of the smallest centerfire rifle calibers commonly in use and has been reasonably inexpensive to shoot, up until recent skyrocketing prices. The AR-15 platform can be dressed up and accurized to be almost as accurate as some of the traditional single shot benchrest rifles, capable of 5 shot groups in less than 3/8” at 100 yrds. Very good for any rifle, but especially a semi-auto rifle. Many folks put tons of money ($2-4,000+ isn’t uncommon) into them just like their cars. That could be why some folks get into a real twit when you want to take their rifle away or make them a criminal, simply, they’re very invested in it. Lots of women enjoy shooting the AR-15 platform because it works well, it’s accurate and it’s a small rifle, with an adjustable, collapsible stock, it’s easy to fit them. Pistol grips and forward grips make it easier to control and be more accurate with. What’s so sinister about that? Oh sorry, I forgot it’s black, that’s it, right? I prefer to call them what they are these days, Sport Utility Rifles. They can even be converted to different calibers making them more usable for different things like hunting or by converting it to .22LR rimfire, so it’s cheaper to shoot. They can be very versatile.
Since “shall issue” concealed carry has been introduced across most states, violent crimes have gone down. It’s not even debatable, it’s real actual numbers and lives that have been saved by more guns being legally carried by those trained and licensed to protect themselves and others in the community. It works. The, “what if” conjecture of those who feared the worst has not come to pass and much to their chagrin the facts are, more firearms in the hands of good folks really does keep bad folks from committing crimes. Those who do commit crimes are less likely to be successful since they don’t know who is armed and who isn’t, the net result is that everyone gains some measure of protection, very much like when people get vaccines. Since even those who have not received the vaccine have a lower risk of encountering the disease, they are less likely to get it, even if they have not received the vaccine. Concealed carry works, plain and simple, you may not like that but there is empirical evidence that shows it does. Simplistically, a good guy with a firearm usually trumps a bad guy with a firearm. A good many of folks that have CCW’s take it very seriously and are far better shots than the professionals who wear badges. I’ve shared range time with both and seen it with my own eyes. Taking a shot at another human being is a serious decision for those who have CCW’s as well, something that no one I have ever known and I know many, take lightly. They want to make sure that if they ever have to shoot at someone in defense, that they do the job right. In OR recently the attack in the mall was stopped with two victims’ when a CCW holder brandished his weapon, but didn’t shoot, all because there were too many people behind the criminal mall shooter. That incident ended with the criminal committing suicide directly after being confronted, without any further deaths. While not proof, it sure worked out in this recent instance.
99.99% of all firearms WILL NOT be used in a crime. However all of us will, in some way, be unduly burdened by the utterly stupid laws enacted by people who have very little knowledge of firearms. Both in this state, in the next couple of years and the federal mandates placed in front of us right now. Let’s punish everyone who wishes to exercise their Right to own firearms because criminals are criminals and they use firearms sometimes in their criminal acts. Is this really logical to punish everyone for the awful criminal acts of a few? Really? Do you really have that much hatred of someone who does their level best to conform to really intrusive and stupid laws? Haters hate, I guess.
It would be far more logical to identify those who have lost their Rights in society than to put everyone else through the blender. Every state ID, drivers license or database should have some form of tag on it that flags those who don’t have that Right to purchase firearms. To make that happen would require the medical community to step up to the plate and identify those folks they thought had problems. It would also require the states to identify and record those felons as well and compile it nationally in a database. That’s what the instacheck system is supposed to do, that’s why it was formed. In at least of few instances it would have at the very least, slowed down a few of these guys, they did purchase through the system and nobody stopped them, whose failure is that…? California is NOT one of those states that uses the federal system, WHY NOT?
In the case of Newtown, his mother paid the price with her life. Is that a high enough price for some of you? How he actually got the firearms, why she trained him in there use, I still don’t think we have definitive answers and that would be nice to know. We need ALL the facts in these incidences, if one was really interested in trying to stop the next event from happening. The police aren’t always as forthcoming with all the facts and take a long time often, in their investigations. The media has no real desire for non sensational information that isn’t going to make you stay up for the 11 PM news or stop you on the way to your coffee maker. They also seem to have agendas in the way they pick and choose what they show and say.
Then you have the rush from those who want to use this tragedy to advance their political agenda. “We don’t need to know more about this tragedy, we know what’s wrong…” without the facts… Sorry but that’s really not the best way to make any decisions. Using the death of anyone but especially children and their pictures to do that is sickening to me. It makes me think that there is no bottom to the depths some will go to advance their cause. Maybe it’s just me, but that’s how I feel and I don’t think my feelings are any less valid than yours. It repulsive to blame me for something I didn’t do.
Neither I, nor the NRA were the first to make this an issue. I can’t speak for the NRA, only myself, and I really want folks to open their eyes to the facts, slow down and be logical, try to do something that will actually save some lives and not punish all of us who are trying hard not to be criminals and wouldn’t think of hurting others, unless it was a last resort. We all want to stop these nut cases from exploding, don’t we? I understand the tragedy, the desire to not have to revisit the terrible loss of life and innocence in our schools, I share it with you.
Please, let’s use factual information and logic, (as hard as both are to find these days) not our emotions and speed, to do something, anything, even if it’s useless or likely to be overturned in the courts.
Is that really too much to ask?
Talk about mental masturbation.
You and the Winships really need to drop this “people who are for gun regulations fear guns” meme.
We don’t fear guns. On their own, they’re just benign hunks of metal…what’s to fear?
It’s particular KINDS of guns, and SOME of the people who own them that are a concern. Is that distinction so difficult to understand?
What’s so tough for you to understand about the ruling in US vs Miller?
On May 15, 1939 the Supreme Court, in a unanimous opinion by Justice McReynolds, writing:
“In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a ‘shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length’ at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument.”
The firearms being discussed are the very type that SCOTUS said was protected. Is that too hard to understand?
I rest my case!
And in Justice Scalia’s 2008 opinion, he acknowledges that Congress and the States have to power to REGULATE gun ownership.
I rest my case.
Regulate does not mean making something illegal to own or possess. Nor does it mean to take without due process or compensation for property in an ex-post facto manner, which is also prohibited by the Constitution. As some of the states are trying to do or did, as the case may be.
Actually, regulate DOES mean that a particular item COULD be illegal to own…such as an AR-15, or a 30-clip magazine…but not certain other firearms and ammo clips.
There’s absolutely nothing unconstitutional about regulating the KINDS of guns and ammo clips people may own. End of story. The Brady Bill (except for one small item) passed constitutional muster before. Something like it can pass constitutional muster again.
“Since “shall issue” concealed carry has been introduced across most states, violent crimes have gone down. It’s not even debatable, it’s real actual numbers and lives that have been saved by more guns being legally carried by those trained and licensed to protect themselves and others in the community.”
Where is your evidence that drops in violent crime are SPECIFICALLY linked to conceal/carry?
While I thought I knew where to get you proof, I have run into some difficulty obtaining it, as well I found some of it to be debatable.
I don’t want to spread misinformation so until I have what I believe are valid answers to your question, I’m researching it.
Expect a new post on the matter of CCW’s and there results at some future date.
I hope that’s good enough for everyone at least for right now.
Best comment yet. We need more of that.
Well, I appreciate the honest backtracking…perhaps you’ll be more circumspect about the “facts” that you spread.
As for myself, I’m open to changing my POV on CCW if shown that it “saves lives.”
In the meantime, these statistics may be of interest to you.
http://www.vpc.org/ccwkillers.htm
Well worth restating.
Carl O:
The Second Amendment isn’t about hunting or “sporting purposes” as many of you would like to suggest or insist. Neither of those reasons have anything to do with firearms ownership being an enumerated Right. The very firearms that are being targeted are the very type of weapons protected by the Second Amendment, which says nothing about ducks or deer. Where that mythology came from I still don’t understand. If the very firearms protected by the Second Amendment are outlawed, what Right does the Second Amendment confirm?
we need to go back to the constitution, the environment within which it was written and the understanding that those brilliant men brought to that wonderful document. if we do that, then we have to agree that every citizen is entitled to a musket and all the round metal balls he or she can melt down.
having shot a weapon many times in self defense (vietnam was not the safest of places), it is not something that one does half-assed. and, when you see the carnage, it is not something that you forget. the yahoos, be they the gang banger in south central or the preppers in idaho, are always going to secure weapons. the question is, what is reasonable for the rest of us. federal law mandates seat belts and things like that. federal law can mandate the size of a clip.
as to the other stuff, i am much more concerned about obama seeking “income equality” than i am about asking me to be subjected to a background check
No Willie, we don’t have to agree! If they intend muskets they would have said muskets, they were very articulate folks.
ha ha that is funny, Willie, I bet you to not take airliner flights because there were no airplanes, You only use horse drawn wagons to get around since the highest rating was about 4 horse power. For long distance travel only sailing ships should be used.
And of couse at that time women could not vote, if fact only wealthly property owners voted.
What else should be banned today because it did not exist 200 plus years ago?
“What else should be banned today because it did not exist 200 plus years ago?”
How about Sarin gas? Do you think Sarin gas should be banned? Should we come up with some other examples for you?
I had no idea that “Sarin Gas” was legal to own by individuals. Where can I get mine?
*It’s all magic…isn’t it? Gun Control advocates come out and cry and moan how big and bad the evil NRA is. Then they want to take guns off the street. Whose guns? Those folks out of work for months and months and need the Gift Cards to trade for Food Stamps.
Meanwhile, the Drug Cartel people can buy whatever they want at whatever the price because like the 1%….they have the money to do so. So, the little guys go out and steal guns from folks homes and sell them to the other bad guys or as the Mayor of
Philadelphia described….they go to Virginia buy 100 guns….and take them to what they call a “Stash House”. They then rent those guns to anyone that wants one to commit their crimes and returns it to the Stash House…….or Big Trouble in Little China.
OK, let’s demonize the NRA or anyone that believes in Respect and Responsiblity with Firearms. Law Abiding…..of course….but more than that – well trained and with safety as their hallmark. These are folks who actually care about their fellow man and certainly NEVER want to use their firearms to protect neighbors, friends or family unless it is absolutely an Emergency.
These folks don’t worry about the Black Helocopter too much……don’t worry about being taken out by Domestic Drones….too much but do worry about Bureaucrats with idle time on their hands. Or worse, Brady Center politicians that are doing exactly what the NRA is doing on the other side. Spy vs. Spy – Come back to Mad Magazine…
As the world turns…..or in the words of Kurt Vonnegut – “And so it goes…..”
Meanwhile, nutcases figure out other ways of killing and maiming…whether it is with fertilizer or full up boxer short with plastique explosive.
There is little doubt that Universal Background Checks are probably a good idea…let’s not demonize a Barrett Crossbow or a Barrett single shot .50 Caliber rifle. How many of those at $2500 bucks and $10 a round are going to be used by nutcases like those that operated in Aurora, Oslo or Newtown?
It ain’t the machines fault people….it is the idiot behind the trigger! Ya think?
cool, if you have followed my posts on here, you would know that i am for only wealthy white male property owners voting. it would solve a lot of problems.
my point is that most of the people talking about guns, on both sides of the issue, have a myopic theoretical understanding of the issue, talk to the men and women who have been under fire, who have had a gun pointed at them and listen to what will be a very reasoned approach to an issue that has gotten swallowed up in politics
WD40 – We do agree that the arguments get twisted along the way. Sort of reminds us of the ’60 and early ’70’s when we came back from the Drafted Army and everyone called us Baby Killers! Thanks Hanoi Jane…we needed that! NOT! Anyway, was stationed in Nuremberg, Germany 72b20 Communications Cryptographic Operator……closest thing to Baby Killing was dealing with the 5 Divisions of Eastern Block Tank in August of 1968. Didn’t kill anyone we know of. Just lucky we guess.
We didn’t go for LBJ or Robert Strange McNamara or Richard Nixon and his lovely pal Henry Kissenger either. Went for over 200 years of American History and of course those that had gone to WWII and Korea. We hated Air Force guys…..that dropped bombs during “Rolling Thunder” and killed bunches of our own guys. Or worse, our own Fighter Bombers that dropped Napalm on our guys in the 7th….Cav….”They were soldiers!” movie.
No, we weren’t all baby killers and we weren’t all sorry we went ….anyway!
At any rate, the name calling by both sides is ridiculous. We are all Americans, some crazier than others. Some more criminal than others. And if we are going to make new laws…..let be laws that apply to all and can in the end make a difference that doesn’t penalize the Majority of folks. Unless of course, you think that there are more crazy people than sane…..but that is another long dialogue we can get into later.
I’m sorry that you were smeared due to the actions of those soldiers who committed such abuses, Ron.
I’ve been calling for RKBA activists to come forward and keep proposed solutions from being solely the work of gun control activists, willie, but so far I haven’t seen a lot of helpful comments if you want something other than “the way it has been in the U.S. is the way that it must be.” That’s not acceptable to people anymore. I hope that we’ll see actually constructive suggestions for change before long.
I think the gun owners that show up on Piers Morgan and make youtube videos screaming about their 2nd Amendment will take care of this problem for us.They come across as arrogant nutjobs. I am happy the GOP plans to resisit this too, along with everything else. The majority of Americans want these laws and it will happen. maybe not this year but it will when the Repubs are voted out in 2014. They are not listening to the citizens and instead choose to focus on the fringe.
I hope they keep it up. Too bad so many will be killed while we wait though.
greg,
that is my point…..having had to use a gun and having seen what those weapons can do, there must be reasonable regulations. the problem is, that like everything else, the issue has become politicized to a point where coherent discourse is almost impossible. we need background checks, we need a restriction on the size of clips but we also need for the left/progressives to understand that guns are as much a part of this culture for some just as mocha lattes are for others
willie,
I am a left leaning progressive that agrees with you, that we need background checks, and we need clip restrictions. I would go a step further and want to restrict types of guns as well. You don’t need a bazooka or grenade launcher to feel safe.
I think that there are plenty of people willing to talk about what is reasonable, it’s just that we hear mostly from a small minority like the NRA, and just the leaders of the NRA, not the rank and file. The board has put out some really tone deaf messages as of late with the whole “it’s video games and violent movies” meme, and then came out a couple weeks later with a video game app where you shoot kid sized coffins with assault weapons. Then an ad comparing the security needs of the Presidents kids to every kid in the US.
Reasonable people are left scratching their heads. Can you give me a comparable example from the opposite extreme? I haven’t found it, but maybe I’m not looking in the right places.
For the record I am a gun owner, grew up with a wide variety of firearms, and don’t want to give up what I have.
At the same time I don’t want to have Charleton Heston’s gun arsenal next door to me. If you’ve never seen this, it’s a bit on the crazy side.
http://www.ultimatesportsmen.com/weird/ch.htm
You’ll take my mocha latte from my cold dead hands!
I agree with you, willie, and I’ve tried to foster such communication. Here’s the problem: RKBA activists (disproportionately rural and exurban, from what I can tell) tend to reap the benefits of lax gun laws while urbanites tend to pay the price for them. Somehow that has to be addressed so that if they impose a cost on others that cost is made up some other way. (This presumes that we can put a cost on human life — which obviously, when it comes to policy, we do.)
damn,,,two reasonable progressives,,,what is the world coming to……
as to counter examples, it is hard to point to a specific ad because the left is more sophisticated than that but if you listen to rachael maddows, chris mathews, ed schultz and the rest, they demonize and belittle the people outside new york and los angeles who grew up with a responsible gun culture. they also ignore the truly horrific problems in places like detroit and chicago.
as to equalizing the costs, that is difficult because of the demographics in urban and suburban areas as opposed to exurban and rural locations and, candidly, i do not think that you are ever going to find a completely fair balance but background checks, a national data base and restrictions on magazines are all a good start.
then you can get into all those socialists things like money for head start, community policing and better schools
Wait – Big Ed the Sportsman from Fargo demonizes people from outside LA and NY? When did that start?
vern, you are right, i must have been thinking about ed royce
Jon Stewart gives a better argument for gun control …http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/jon-stewart-mercilessly-mocks-pro-gun-right-wingers-over-obama-tyranny-allegations
*The classic response:
Gun Control means…….hitting what you are aiming at…every time!
Compensating.
*Yes….it is good to use a Compensator sometimes…especially with a Thompson Sub Machine gun. They use a Cutts Compensator….that reduces the recoil.
Just when we thought that you couldn’t be any more obtuse than your previous comments….
You might regret this one in the morning.
*Anon brought up “compensating”…not us!
I found this article about Switzerland and Israel, for those who like to compare us to them…
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/12/14/mythbusting-israel-and-switzerland-are-not-gun-toting-utopias/