There are many ways to measure progress. Are you making more? Are you putting more cash in your pocket? Do you feel better about yourself? Are you sleeping more? Do your kids have better parties?
One measure is if we are better off than our parents or grandparents. I know that my folks certainly wanted a better life for me than they had. I also know that my grandparents wanted a better life for my parents than they had. I never knew my great grandparents. I do want a better life for my kids than I have…although I am not going to give that life to them, I want them to earn it!
So the question is do you feel you are better off than your parents or grandparents? If so, why?
I personally feel that we are cumulatively better off. I will try to break my reasoning down to a few major factors, in no particular order:
Housing
I remember using an outhouse as a kid and hauling water…that was pretty rare for my generation but I believe much more of a common place a few years back. The advances of the modern home are great- huge advantage for today.
I also remember sleeping in bunk beds and would not think of having your own room. Siblings and often entire families sharing sleeping space was relatively common back a generation or two. The huge homes did not seem to be the norm. Now, it seems that everyone who does not have a 2500 square foot house wants one. Even 2500 square feet seems to be small by certain circles.
I wonder if it is strange that in our 3 bedroom home that we make all 3 kids sleep in the same room…and even better, I wear it as a badge of honor when people ask about it.
Overall, I would say that our housing is better off. We have a choice on where to live both in terms of geography and plenty of sizes of homes. Make the smart decision though…don’t buy too much house- it can really hurt you in the end. And let your kids share a room- they will grow to love it!
Information & Technology
Can you imagine not having a computer now? How about having to use a phone book? What about only a house phone with a rotary dial instead of a smart phone…We have so much more information available to us now that our parents never dreamed of…in fact, I wish my parents in fact had dreamed about a of our technologies that we take for granted now. The technological advances that we have seen during our lives have been tremendous. We can do more with less. We are better informed. We get information as it happens.
Hands down…we are much better off.
Travel
We can travel by plane so much easier, quicker and cheaper than a generation ago. We can go too far off places…assuming one can afford it. Save up and go see a part of the state you have never seen before. I do remember those great camping trips in the rain and fishing with dad more than anything, so I still want to expose my family to that, but we have the ability to do and see so much more. My grandparents likely would not have dreamed of going to Washington DC to see our country’s capital as youngsters…now, many will fundraise and off they go with school. Great experiences. Advantage: today.
Stress
Oh boy…I am stressed. I am sure my parents felt stress too, but I have to imagine that as a whole, we are more stressed than our parents- for their sake, I hope we are more stressed. They say it to me at least, so I figure others are the same way. I wish it were not so…maybe it is just me. However, they did have other stresses that we don’t have, regardless, advantage: mom and dad.
Jobs & Education
This is a tough one…on one hand I feel like we have so many more educational opportunities available to us. We have made significant advances with learning disabilities. Private educations is advancing. Educators are highly trained. Availability of sports at the high school and lower level has likely declined- or at least are not free. Some feel a need to utilize private schooling due to perceived issues with the public schools- even some public school teachers are sending kids to private school. Trade schools are available. Unfortunately, the cost of higher education seems to be far exceeding any advancement in most people’s income.
Due to the vast educational opportunities, I feel like the ability to choose a profession is likely at a higher level today than yesteryear. Due to globalization and technology advances, a lot of good jobs no longer exist- at least here in the US. Wages in real terms don’t seem to be increasing much but they don’t seem to be decreasing much either- depending on what you are doing, this may or may not be true. The gap is widening for those at the very upper crest of the income scale compared to the rest of the US. There are still real opportunities to move up and “make it” financially. There are opportunities still to create and make things that others need and want- even if they have never seen it. The internet has brought a whole new industry that allows freelancing and tip-toeing into something much easier.
Our family is definitely better off financially and educationally than my parents and definitely grandparents. We can afford things that past generations, could not even fathom.
Overall, I call this one a push in general, but advantage “today” for me. My prayer is an advantage for others too.
Kids’ Birthday Parties
OK, this is a pet peeve and probably should not be on the list, except I am writing it so I can put in what I want. Does everyone have to have a full on party every year which involves more than a cake and a gathering of classmates? I mean seriously…kids parties are crazy expensive now. They can be elaborate. Parents are going into debt. They are spending on kids parties what could easily be saved in their education accounts or at least help pay down family debt. The kids are expecting it now and get disappointed when they don’t receive it. I am glad that I am fine in disappointing my kids occasionally…advantage: mom and dad.
Keeping Up…
Just because we see someone else with a big house, new car, or designer clothing does not mean that we have to have it. It seems like my folks and grandparents did not get caught up into the keeping up with the Joneses as much as many do today. I personally have no problem living in a smaller home, driving 10 year old cars with over 150K miles on them, and wearing the same clothing year after year. I don’t have to have the newest “thing” although they sure are nice when we get them and it helps us.
Although, maybe because we have seen such advances in technology and globalization that the price of goods has come down so much that a BMW may not mean what it used to. Plus, the free flowing debt cycle that is out there makes “buying” something a very long process…because you have to pay it off over such a long period of time. I feel like the elder generation did a much better job about saving for something and then buying it instead of seeing something and going into debt to get it.
We are also now exposed to so many more Joneses. My grandparents knew the people in their community…they were very like minded. They likely did not want to stick out. Now, we are exposed to so many more type of people just driving on the freeway. Somehow we developed a keep up with them mentality that I don’t think existed in the older generation…if anything, that may have been frowned upon.
This is a big problem in my opinion…Advantage: the past, although I am fighting this one daily.
Environment
When I first moved to CA, I remember my first trip into Simi Valley from the North. I asked the person I was riding the bus with, do you know if there is a fire? He looked at me and said, “Dude, that is smog”. Wow. I feel that some items are getting better while others do not. We have warmer temps. We have seemingly less clean water. By the way, your grass does not have to be green 12 months out of the year when you live in a drought area such as Orange County. Water waster is huge…turn your sprinklers off or at least down. Travel to other wet parts of the country such as Oregon and you will see plenty of brown lawns during the summer…it is OK. Advantage: oh man, tough one…not sure- probably better off than parents but maybe not as good as grandparents.
Medicine
Advancing in medicine has been vast in the past 100 years. We can cure diseases that previously were death sentences. We can prevent others that are so rare now that we don’t even see them. Just as with education, it seems that the major issue is financial…can we continue to afford it? I for one am happy for all of the advances in medicine, although I am not a huge fan of prolonging life just to prolong life, I like the fact that we have the opportunity to do so. Advantage: today.
Saving
To me, it is not so much about your offense as it is your defense. Not so much about your income statement as it is your balance sheet. Our parents I don’t think had to concern themselves with that as much due to the retirement plans with a “defined benefit” (traditional pension) compared to now our “defined contribution” plans. I personally love the fact that I can control my future though. I love know what is going on with it. I love being able to make decisions and see the impact of those decisions. With the financial information available now versus then (remember stock price pages in the newspaper??), for someone like me, it is a huge plus. On line savings accounts, on line brokerages, etc…next to nothing to buy a stock now compared to virtually impossible for a regular Joe to do it years ago.
I know that I am not like everyone in this aspect though. Not everyone is geared up to think that way. I do wish that others would take a more proactive role in their financial future. For me, it happened in a finance class when we did compound interest calculations and I saw the difference of saving a little over a longer period of time compared to saving more over a shorter period of time- amazing! Slow and steady wins the race. Advantage: me, I wish it was “us” but I am not sure I can say that.
Overall
I definitely feel better off. I do long for some of the simpler life that my parents and grandparents enjoyed. I understand that I am extremely fortunate…I am thankful every day for that. I know that tomorrow may not be the same and as such am even more cautious about living like today is better than yesterday. I hope that you also feel better off today than yesterday…and again, let’s please tone down the kids’ parties already.
What do you think…let’s discuss with an open mind.
Surprisingly (or maybe not), you’ve pretty much glossed over the financial differences.
Like median income vs cost of median housing (and let’s talk California to keep it simple) think it’s the same ratio over the years?
In Ca. median income is a little over 53k and the median home price is a little over 280k*, is it harder for today’s families to own a house than it was a generation or two ago?
I think it is, without pulling up facts and figures, we all know or have heard about average workers being priced out of the very communities they work in.
I can’t tell you how many of my children’s teachers lived in Riverside County and commuted to their jobs in the OC. Same with firefighters, cops, plumbers, electricians etc.
It didn’t use to be that way, most people could afford to live in the area they worked in.
So in this area, we might have a nicer house, but we definitely are paying more for the privilege.
I rate this a negative as it also is connected to the commute.
Since average folks have to go further afield to find affordable housing they are spending a lot more time and money on everyday transportation.
I rate the commute as negative and I didn’t even mention the horrible traffic we deal with on a daily basis.
*Yes, the current home today will most likely be larger, but your lot will be probably be a lot smaller, so let’s call it a wash.
How about insurance rates and the amount of insurance people are expected to carry in our sue happy world? Does anybody think it’s cheaper today?
Ditto with medical costs, 50 years ago most people didn’t have health insurance or premiums or co-pays and if you had to go to the emergency room for a couple of hours you didn’t get a 5 figure bill.
Nowadays, most women have to work as most families can’t make it on one income, very different from the 40’s through the early 70’s when almost any profession could support a family and that brings up the costs and stresses of child care. Which in my opinion is another negative, as we as a society have done very little to help families with this situation (as opposed to a country like France).
Sorry it did not meet your expectations on the finance end- tried to cover a myriad of area…finance was part of Jobs, Education, Kids’ Birthday Parties, Keeping Up…, and Medicine.
I honestly meant to put it in the housing section also, but it looks like my fingers did not keep up with my brain. I agree with most of what you wrote about on housing to income. I do believe people buy too much house though…houses are larger now than they used to be. We don’t need these large homes- bunk beds! Larger homes also mean additional costs beyond just the purchase price also…utilities, maintenance, insurance, etc…You won’t get an argument from me that wages have not kept up with housing, education, and medical costs- all of which I mentioned with the exception of housing (oversight- a large one).
I did not think about insurance honestly, but you bring up good points. We have to insure everything. Heck, there is a whole new industry on it that helps people insure risk in a tax efficient manner- captive insurance. The only insurance that I can see that has become more affordable would be term life insurance. All others probably have also risen at a rate faster than wages.
I am somewhat of a country boy growing up…more cows than people in my town growing up. Orange County Consumerism is not something I grew up with…large homes, expensive cars, designer clothes, private schooling, etc…I remember that the most expensive auto that a family would have would be their tractor- something that would actually make money instead of consume money. We could definitely live where we worked…I think in a lot of the country this is the case also.
I’m not so sure that Information and Technology is quite the hands-down win you feel it is.
People are now more isolated from each other than they ever were. There was a study that showed that college-aged people are 40% less empathetic than in the 1980s and 1990s. I’ve talked to several people who are a position to hire young people and they all feel that young people are less articulate than they used to be (why learn how to articulate when you can text?) Our personal information seems more vulnerable than ever to scams. We feel utterly helpless and experience increased stress when our mobile devices and email go down. We have employers using social media to pry into the personal lives of potential employees. The list goes on and on…I don’t think we’ve seen the full societal impacts of the new technologies.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/todays-college-kids-are-40-per-cent-less-empathetic-study-finds/article1371775/
So Anon, what do you feel about the topic?
I’d say Anonster and I have at least STARTED to show that the picture is more complicated than the one you paint.
Is that a decline to state?
That’s a “your case is weakening.”
I love that whenever you ask a question of me, I do my best to answer it and open a discussion…maybe I have not been around long enough to understand how this should work. Thanks for contributing!
Seriously, Boutwell– Commenter of the Year. I don’t know how you don’t lose it.
I agree with Ryan, thanks for keeping the conversation on track. Ryan may learn how not to lose it…or duck the issues….just kidding!
Some may say that technology is isolating people, which in some cases is true. Other cases is actually connects people together. There are so many people that I would never be in touch with unless it was for the technology. Times definitely are changing though…I have so many clients who text me info and respond at all times of the day and night. The young vs the old rift will continue to build upon itself. The old don’t like way the young communicate and vice-a-versa. The customer is often the young and so the supplier has to adapt. It goes both ways. Both sides have to learn to articulate in all means of communication.
We definitely have not seen the full impact of the new technologies…we have not even begun to think of what the new technologies even will be. No one even thought of IPads 15 years a go, now they are the norm.
Of course I am! My grandparents are dead!
Well, do we really have to get into this one Greg? I did not really think of bringing religion and the afterlife into this, but…
Funny, but seriously, what is your take on this? My grandparents were much more ecologically and conservation minded, by necessity and technology of their times.
Great point RT…my grandparents were much more creative in using the environment but not to their detriment. They understood that they could harvest but if they take everything, there will be no harvest next year. They also were the original recyclers and not talking about putting cardboard and cans in a container by the curb…actually reusing and re-purposing.
Your grandparents are only dead in the third dimension where time is linear. In the fourth dimension time is circular, in essence we feel no pressures of time.
Go see James Van Praagh, if you have the time…..
they could have reincarnated…and according to quantum physics…they aren’t dead but have only changed form. We’re all molecules and atoms!
All molecules and atoms, eh? How about a soul? Do you have a soul?
Another important measure I would point to is that families are choosing to have far fewer children than our parents and grandparents. If we truly felt like we could have the life that they did, and even better, why is that so?
So, are you better off than your parents/grandparents?
I think we are showing that, by some measures, we are. By other measures, we aren’t.
It’s feeling like a wash to me. And if your premise is “better,” (a vague term indeed) then no, we’re not better off.
Thanks for responding!
Because our grandmothers had different priorities than our wives.
And because there is also a greater concern about the economic implications of large families.
Regarding the shrinking family…not sure from the city dwellers, but in “ag country” where I grew up larger families were often a built in way of having a workforce in place on the family farm. Cheap labor- the original Walmart I guess. My mom worked for her parents for years prior to thinking she should get paid- and then getting hushed when she asked about it. I think my grandma actually went on “strike” when my mom turned 16 or so to force my grandpa to pay her- funny family lore. It was also a succession plan- kids take over the family farm and take care of mom/dad in their aging years. Even now, having 1 kid is risky as you don’t know where they will live when you need them.
We are in a different situation now where we are not quite such a small family farm society- especially her in Orange County. Certainly in certain parts of the country and here in CA, that is still the case, but not too much here locally. As for me, we have 3 kids…the same as my parents did. One set of grandparents had 3 kids and another had 2.
I think family size has more to do with the availability of birth control and the high costs of raising a child 226k (w/o college).
Which brings up the crippling cost of college. In my day very few people (and no one I knew or know) had to take out loans for college. Nationwide two thirds of kids graduating from college had debt and the average was over 26k. Surprisingly, Ca is a little better;
“The news was somewhat better in California, where the average debt was $18,879, up 4.2% from the year before. The lower debt level appears to be the result of the state’s heavy concentration of lower-cost public colleges.”
Still, young people starting off life burdened with debt is terrible, not only for the stress and the way debt limits their choices, but for our economy. If young people have to put off moving out and starting their own families that has a big ripple effect. Those young people aren’t out buying homes (or renting apartments), furniture and all the ancillary stuff associated with living on your own.
I would also venture to guess that those who start families later in life tend to have fewer children too.
Student debt is a huge negative.
I could write a whole article on my feelings about student loan debt (SLD). It is the next bubble to burst in my opinion, but their is no “do over” as it is in most cases not discharged even during bankruptcy.
SLD is a huge problem. It starts with the high cost of education. Manifests by 5 years instead of 4 years of college for a lot. Gets worse when students don’t take on jobs to help pay- myriad of reasons one of which is classloads (this is not a dig on “lazy students”- that is not what I am talking about). Students getting sold a story at for profit institutions and going into further debt. The ability of students to take “cash out student loans” where the money does not actually go to the school. On and on…
In my day, a lot of students took on SLD, but not as a the full funding mechanism. I certainly had SLD coming out of university but not to the extent that a lot of students have now. I worked my tail off paying it off because it was like a cloud hanging over me- even though I was fortunate enough to have one of the cheapest interest rates heard of for a loan (something like 1.9% if I recall).
Now, parents are likely not able to contribute as much due to the extraordinary increases to the cost of education not keeping up with their earning power. Couple that with students who have such high SLD balances in comparison to their future earning power/potential and it is a disaster waiting to happen.
Fortunately, CA has one of the least expensive Community College systems around. Yes, it has gone up but it is still cheap in comparison to others I believe (on facts, just my gut). 2 years at CC followed by finishing up at a university. Working in the mean time saving up for the future costs of college along with choosing a profession that matches the cost will certainly help.
Oh, and parents- instead of lavish birthday parties, how about saving that money and putting it into a education savings account!
In the 60’s and 70’s working a minimum wage job on the side could put you through college and not just any college, a UC.
The minimum wage has not kept up with inflation and the cost of college has exploded.
A UC is over 30k a year and a minimum wage job in CA pays a little over 16k, we have definitely lost ground.
From NPR;
“If you are a veteran of a public university, the jump in tuition at your alma mater might be downright jaw-dropping. Tuition at the University of California, Berkeley, was about $700 a year back in the 1970s. Today, U.C. Berkeley students have to fork over around $15,000 per year. That’s a 2,000 percent increase.”
Even since 1990 when UC tuition was 1,800+ to last year; 13k+, how does a family save and plan for that kind of inflation?
Boutwell,
Glad you finished it! Interesting observations and for the most part I agree.
Kids parties, I’m right there with you!
Thanks for acknowledging the kids parties…finally someone!
I also love how you just brush so quickly by the ever-increasing healthcare costs. This is a very, very big deal for young adults and families today. Healthcare crisis are responsible for about 60% of personal bankruptcy claims today. The difficulty of getting individual coverage is also stifling entrepreneurship…there are many people who would like to strike out on their own, start a business, but can’t afford to leave their employer-based coverage (even though the employer pays a greater percentage of that than ever before).
http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/jun2009/db2009064_666715.htm
*correction: “…even though the EMPLOYEE pays a greater percentage…”
Sorry you feel I glossed over it…obviously this was not a 10 page dissertation although it feels like some of my responses read like it is. I indicated that the major issue with healthcare (my header is actually medicine) is financial. Huge issue. I personally left a secure firm with healthcare provided. I know others who have done the same. I know the difficulty of doing so…I know how much it sucks to be on COBRA.
I am not trying to be purely contrarian here even though you probably feel I am…healthcare actually can be a huge factor in going from just one person (the sole entrepeneur) to at least 1 additional hire…you then can have an employer sponsored plan. That is huge! Individual coverage is very tough…employer sponsored plans are much more affordable and easier to get.
Wages definitely have not kept up with healthcare increases (or as I state, housing and education either)…no argument. We certainly have better healthcare (treatments, medicine, recovery, surgical methods, etc…) available though IMO…as I originally state, the issue is financial- can you afford the better healthcare.
BTW, I know you mean that employers are paying a lesser % of insurance…the increases are being bourne more by the employee- fortunately at our firm, we have not had to pass any of those increases onto our employees.
Well, saying that to strike out on your own you better be able to hire at least one person off the bat…that’s a deal-breaker for a lot of people. What if someone wants to simply be a tax consultant and work from a home office?
Hence the stifle factor I mentioned.
I can say for me and a few others in that exact same situation, we used that as a part of our motivation to grow. We did not do it right off the bat…remember, COBRA is available. Yes, it is expensive, but it is a gap fill until someone gains some speed, so you don’t have to hire someon right off the bat.
Being on your own is not for everyone for sure. Health insurance is another expense that one must consider when venturing out on your own…no doubt difficult and as you say, it can be a deal breaker, along with some others too.
I guess that pedroza belongs in the fourth dimension since his arguments are nearly always circular.
?
My grandparents are living in a cardboard box and eating dog food. I guess that I am somewhat better off than that.
Boutwell,
I just came across this article and I’d like your thoughts;
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/30/financial-emergency-report_n_2576326.html?utm_hp_ref=business
Hi Anonster…got a few things going on today but I think i will try to use that article as the backdrop to another post. I briefly looked it over and feel it could provide some great discussion. It is indirectly related to this discussion, but likely will take on a life of its own. Hopefully I can put it together tonight.
Looking forward to it.
A few trends that are affecting our “communal” quality of life;
Church attendance down
Trust in various institutions and their leaders down
Participation in civic groups down
But we do have our internet families.
Vern and Greg are like our mom and dad, Fiala is our crazy and embarrassing great uncle (who really should be committed), Pedroza is the cousin who threatened to sue us and we no longer speak to. And the rest of you are like so many brothers and sisters, some I can’t stand, some I merely tolerate and some I genuinely like.
No need for real human interaction or even getting out of our PJ’s!
I rate virtual life a big positive.
I’m the dad, woman, right?
It’s 2013 Vern, we can have two daddies.
Gosh, I completely forgot the Winships, hmmm.
They could be our old hippie aunt and uncle, who dropped a little too much acid back in the day and are still perpetually stoned … or?I’m open to suggestions.
The Grate One? Our insane elderly Cuban neighbor, who brings by good food sometimes so we try to tolerate him. Michelle Quinn? Nothing but a scary memory.
All kidding aside, the internet is a nice diversion, but it probably does keep us from actually engaging in our communities or even with our own families.
I am so grateful that it wasn’t as ubiquitous when my kids were young, I see so many parents on their smart phones ignoring their children, it can’t be good. And what about the little one’s with I-pads, I wonder what that is even doing to their eyesight let alone their minds.
I agree with your point about families ignoring each other because they are checking, their email, twitter, facebook…some seem to be addicted to their tech devices. Its really too bad. I saw a commercial during Christmas selling talking books that helped kids learn to read, they could read themselves bedtime stories.
When my son was little we read together every night before he went to sleep. It was more than just me reading to him, it was bonding. I wouldn’t ever buy something like that. I don’t like kindles either. I like books, not tech devices to read with.
Its really too bad…we are missing out on life when we are addicted to our tech devices. We should stop reading about it and go explore for ourselves.
I’m totally agreeing with you on this Inge.
I see younger couples out on dates and they are sitting across from each other working their iPhones. That’s pretty disconnected if you ask me. The cell phone company would tell you different and boast about how connected they are.
I’ve also seen families out to dinner, and the kids are totally engrossed with their phones and games, talking to no one.
I can’t think of a better way to connect to a child than to read with them. There are a lot of kids books out there that have pop-ups and textured pages that are appealing to kids on several elves. You can’t get that from a Kindle.
There is a diff between now and then. My grandparents had assets and wealth when they died, but not so when they lived in the great depression.
Now adays it seems that the current crop of grandparents (baby boomers) will die with massive debt and little to no assets.
pedroza belongs in the 4th dimension b/c his arguments are circular –
The Orange Juice Oracle
Jan 29 – 21:56
Your grandparents are only dead in the third dimension where time is linear. In the fourth dimension time is circular, in essence we feel no pressures of time.
*Angry Birds, Beyonce, Lindsay Lohan, Piers Morgan, Eric Cantor, Rush Limbaugh, Bill O’Reilly and Sean Hannity, kind of balance out our need for You Tube and Google…..which of course have saved the world more times than once.