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I have watched and listened in stunned silence as the reports flow out of the events surrounding the Wisconsin Legislature’s attempts to bring its state budget deficit under control. For those of you living on Mars, Wisconsin’s new Governor ran on a platform that promised to balance the budget without raising taxes and he was elected handily. To carry out these campaign promises (I know, we aren’t used to that kind of promise keeping here in California Governor Brown), the Governor has floated a proposal that is evidently supported by both houses of the state legislature that would 1) eliminate some collective bargaining rights, 2) increase the employee portion of their pension by 5%, and 3) increase the employee contribution for health care by 12.5%. Both of these added employee contribution requirements would still be less than employees working for private companies are required to pay.
Facing certain passage of this bill in both houses, Democratic members of the legislature took action – they left the state. Here is where things get funny. According to Democrat State Senator Jon Erpenbach “we will return when the democratic process is restored to Wisconsin.” I had to read that a couple of times myself to make sure that I understood “the words coming out of his mouth.” Let’s see if I have this straight, right now with the Democrats cowering in a Chicago hotel so that there will be NO vote and NO exercise of the democratic process that makes the Republicans seeking a vote “undemocratic?” That gives me brain freeze. Evidently the Democrats think that this nasty voting thing is undemocratic. Silly me, I thought VOTING was the democratic method – had I known that RUNNING AWAY was actually more democratic it would have saved me from all of the pesky trips to the ballot box.
It then gets even funnier. In violation of their contractual obligations and perhaps in violation of Wisconsin law, teachers have been “calling in sick” in such record numbers that Madison and Milwaukee have had to shut down a large percentage of their schools. These teachers have lost such touch with reality that some of them have actually taken students along with them to protest as part of the “educational experience.” Other public employees have similarly played hookey from work to “protest” the proposed law in violation of their contracts. Wait, that’s not the best part – these illegal strikes have been coordinated by the Democratic National Convention and Obama’s Organizing for America have helped to coordinate these illegal and immoral actions by helping to coordinate the strikes, hire bussesto transport union workers to Madison to protest and building phone banks to organize support for the strikes and opposition to the proposed legislation. http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0211/DNC_playing_role_in_Wisconsin_protests.html?showall
What I find most appalling is the arrogance of the Democrats and unions who are clearly saying that they are “right” and that the majority of Wisconsin voters just got it wrong when they elected fiscally conservative Republicans. The funniest broadcast moment of all happened when the CNN anchor genuinely asked if the protestors were representative of the views of ALL of Wisconsin’s citizens. Yeah, that’s it, the 58 Republican members of the assembly and the 19 state senators took power through secret action and, along with the Governor, are the only 77 Wisconsinites in favor of dialing back public employee benefits.
Rather to engage in meaningful dialogue, the unions have likened Wisconsin’s new governor to Hitler, called his legislation a form of rape and other similar scare tactics. To create the appearance of broad support, Union activists have actually recruited protest participants from union members in outlying states. Ironically this atmosphere of violence and hate is always decried by the left as the exclusive domain of the right. Well, the unions have sure dispelled that myth.
Union Words of Vilence http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71gsnLfsbbM&feature=player_embedded
I really hope that the lunacy of all of this causes a backlash heard ’round the country. I hope that unions in other states pick up the placards and start to preemptivelyprotest wage and benefit roll backs. At a time when the private sector has lost hundreds of thousands of jobs, when people have had to take any work that they can get just to make ends meet I hope that folks can see the selfishness and myopia of Union Bosses whose primary goal is to line their own pockets with ill gotten tax payer dollars. I hope that the backlash from this protest and the ill advised actions of Wisconsin’s Democratic party is the first step towards bringing the crippling impact of public employee union power into balance with the rest of the workforce.
Is Governor Walker’s Proposal
the “End” of Collective Bargaining
in Wisconsin?
A number of the comments to this story have alleged that I am sweeping the impact that the proposed legislation will have on the collective bargaining process under the table. Of course I correctly highlighted this impact in the very first paragraph of the post – and accurately portrayed those impacts as well “the Governor [Walker] has floated a proposal that is evidently supported by both houses of the state legislature that would 1) eliminate some collective bargaining rights . . ..” The posters have either explicitly stated that the legislation WILL end collective bargaining rights or clearly implied that conclusion. So what is the truth?
Interestingly none of the major news sources have provided any real analysis of the real impact the proposed legislation would have on the collective bargaining process – I have to go to the source itself and review the language of the proposed legislation. First, NOTHING in the proposed legislation would impact the collective bargaining rights of any private unions in any way – its impact is limited solely to PUBLIC unions. Second, the proposed legislation would remove workers’ rights, in place since a 1959 court decision, to negotiate over pensions and health insurance, both of which are being cut. Workers would be allowed to continue bargaining over wages. The bill means state workers will have to pay half their pension costs and at least 12.6% of their healthcare coverage. The legislation also weakens the unions by dictating elections and changing rules on collecting union dues. These changes are a far cry from the claims of total repeal of collective bargaining.
I have searched far and wide for any rationale for the need for public unions. The case law emerging from the union case from the first 50 years of the past century focused on the tactics of intimidation and harassment from management to employees in the private sector. Physical battles and physical intimidation were common and created something far less than a level playing field. These same arguments simply don’t apply to public unions and certainly not in today’s world. Instead we have created behemoths of highly funded lobby groups that can dump millions of dollars into state and local campaigns to have a huge and often decisive impact on those elections. Dues are collected virtually involuntarily and are taken directly out of a members paycheck. 90+ percent of the dues collected go directly into lobbying efforts with less than 5% spent on actual wage and benefit discussions.
Public sector salaries have grown virtually unchecked for the past several decades without any real counterpressure. Now that people are waking up to the fact that their future is being mortgaged because of these spiraling salaries, benefits and pensions, these union thugs are responding like cornered animals. The truth is that they are not cornered animals but simply children caught with their hands in the cookie jar.
For an excellent analysis of all of these issues please see CNN (I can’t believe they actually published something good) at: http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/02/21/avlon.wisconsin.unions/index.html?hpt=T2
Fraudulent Phone Call From Electronic “Fish Wrap” Editor of ‘Buffalo Beast’ Comes Up Empty
Until today you have probably never heard of an “online only” Buffalo publication called the “Buffalo Beast” or its hapless editor Ian Murphy and for good reason – the “Beast” folded up its print tent two years ago when it failed to find its place in the not very crowded Buffalo, New York media marketplace. Today the “Beast” got some minor coverage because of a stunt pulled by its editor the hapless and evidently shameless Ian Murphy that would have been a multiple felony had he done the same thing in California. Mr. Murphy called Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker posing as a Walker supporting political activist David Koch and tried every dirty trick in the book to mislead Governor Walker into making disparaging remarks or to get the Governor to tip his hand as to strategy – to Governor Walker’s credit he is s straight shooter and did not take the bait. I will admit that the left is partially justified in its laughter and finger pointing over the incident – the Governor took the call and evidently was never aware that he was talking to an imposter. During a critical time like the one the State of Wisconsin is going through right now, a statewide elected official might want to do a tad more call screening and authentication than occurred today.
The substance of the phone call ended up much less interesting than desired by scumbag Murphy whose repeated baiting of the Governor went unrewarded. First, Mr. Murphy tried to bait the Governor into talking about “planting” troublemakers among the protestors, an action the Governor said he did not consider and did not feel was necessary because of the “overwhelming support” of the Wisconsin citizenry. Scumbag Murphy then made a horribly sexist and offensive remark calling MSNBC reporter Mika Brzezinski “a real piece of ass.” The Governor sat in silence refusing to respond in any way to the comment. Still fraudulently posing as Mr. Koch, supposed editor Murphy then asks the Governor to reveal his endgame strategy. The Governor does discuss efforts to get the Democrats to return to the state (and I admit to cringing hearing his naivete in assuming the caller is who he says he was without authentication), but all of the tactics discussed by the Governor were all perfectly legal and appropriate. The call ends with the scumbag fraud Murphy inviting the Governor out to California to celebrate after passage of the legislation to which the governor makes a non-committal response. Given the multiple ways the phone call could have gone wrong or disclosed “politics as usual” dirty tactics, I walked away from listening to the phone call impressed with the integrity of the Governor and his real belief in the cause.
Now lets look at Mr. Murphy’s actions. He calls the Governors office and lies saying that he is someone he is not. In California that would be a felony, unfortunately it is ambiguous in both Wisconsin and New York as to whether this conduct constitutes as crime. Scumbag Murphy then RECORDS the conversation without the knowledge or permission of the Governor. Again, in California this would be a felony but this questionable act is not a crime in either Wisconsin or New York. Mr. Murphy then makes sexist and horrible offensive remarks about an MSNBC reporter. Had a Fox reporter made those same comments, regardless of the reason, the media throughout the country would be skewering them on a regular basis. Next, under false pretenses scumbag Murphy tries to get the Governor to reveal his strategy.
The little press that this action has received to date all deals with “fooling” the Governor – as if it is perfectly appropriate for a reporter to play what amounts to a practical joke on a Governor during a state of crisis. Not a single story points out the horrible ethics, the sexist and offensive language and justify the dirty tricks as if just and appropriate when trying to uncover a non-existent right wing Wisconsin conspiracy. Not a single report talks about the fact that the Governor’s responses were all appropriate and shows his belief in the cause and his refusal to engage in similar “dirty tricks.”
The protesting looks just like what happened at CUSD last year. The union zealots are an incredible bunch of thugs, telling lies, intimidating people, making hateful statements, getting their students involved, and only caring about lining their pockets on the backs of others. The union zealots can’t see pass their noses . . . and actually believe they are entitled and PAID for it! Give me a break. If we don’t stand up to them now, later when we are forced to, EVENTUAL VIOLENCE WILL RESULT and worse. Thanks for presenting this clear picture.
Let’s get this straight — the Governor and Republican majority are engaged in high-profile union-busting while refusing to negotiate with their colleagues across the aisle — or even with moderates in their own party. Yet it’s the Democractic minority that gets blamed for using the tools at their disposal to try to open discussion? Geoff is right — it would be funny, if it wasn’t so sad. But, I gather the point of the comment wasn’t just to needle Democrats, it was to attack unions.
Geoff obviously doesn’t remember when public employees didn’t have unions, were denied the right to strike and couldn’t bargain collectively. I do. Teachers were paid a pittance and worked at the mercy of the principals and school boards. Police and fire fighters were a little better off, but not much. It’s a fallacy to say that public employees don’t need unions because their employers aren’t subject to the market — they need them because they are an easy political scapegoat in tough times — just look at Wisconsin.
That said — I don’t think anyone would disagree that we can’t afford the pensions and benefits our governments agreed to in more flush times. All unions, including public employee unions, need to recognize this. But, the answer isn’t to demonize unions and destroy collective bargaining — or to attack Democrats for supporting them. I for one don’t want to go back to the days when public employees didn’t have the same rights, or salaries, as private workers.
Welcome to the Juice – intelligent responses always appreciated.
You suck up Willis.
You mean like the responses from Great One, Stanislav Star and Michelle Quinn? THOSE kinds of intelligent responses?
don’t forget junior
We won’t mention that elections have consequences and we won’t mention that it is the runaway democrats that are not coming to the table. Most of the debate was won at the polls and the rest needs to be debated on the floor. Just as Obamacare got slammed in when most of the public didn’t want it and when the Republicans were told to sit in the back of the “bus” was it?
Yes,Geoff, you sucked up!
As far as unions being needed, where is the taxpayers’ voice being heard here? The pendulum has swung way to far to the left. It is time to turn it back. After the state gains fiscal ground, the unions can argue bargaining back. Right now, the it is well known that public unions have bought most of the politicians, Dems and Repubs, so again, the taxpayer gets the shaft. Democracy in action is coming to the table and participating. If the voters decide Governor Walker went too far, then they can go back to being a blue state in 2012. That’s playing fair, that’s how the game is supposed to be played.
You got a point, I keep wondering how many of those angry pro-labor protesters we’re seeing on TV stayed home last November because midterms just aren’t exciting enough, or they were impatient that Obama hadn’t accomplished enough yet. I hope they never make that mistake again.
What a garbage these unions, socialists and progressives are?
The Governor who is against unions is depicted as the MOTHER OF ALL UNIONS — The German Workers’ Party (German: Deutsche Arbeiterpartei, abbreviated DAP) was the short-lived predecessor of the Nazi Party (German: Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei, abbreviated NSDAP).
If you want 6,000,000 dead Jews vote against Wisconsin’s new Governor!
Go ahead!… Make my day!
i am so sick n tired of these public employee unions crying about their benefits . crying that they have to pay for their health care imagine that . we need for folks like the gov of wisc and someone like the gov of N .J . STANDING UP TO THESE socialist thugs . instead we get jerry union brown and mayor reconquista . i hope they pull a ronnie regan on them dont show up to work adios baby . try to find a job in the real world THE PRIVATE SECTOR . .
OMG the gov with a hitler mustache from a union goon . now lets see the dems got mad because they said they saw the tea party with a obama hitler mustache .. im waiting for them to respond to this one .. i wont hold my breath ..
Like in Santa Ana the math proficiency rate in Wisconsin is less than 40 percent. Public Union workers are the left!
The Governor’s move in Wisconsin is less about budgets and money than it is about politics.
The “shoe leather ” of the Democrats are the public employee unions. The right identified this as a strategic disatvantage in 1974 and by the time the got Reagan elected, he took great pains (early and often) to break up, disrupt and dimantle these organizations.
Governor Walkers moves smack of political opportunism, He can become a darling of the now “fiscal responsible right” (ignoring eight years of tremendous growth in federal spending under Bush) and be well positioned for a second term, senate seat, maybe even a plush cabinet post in Jeb Bush’s administration….or if his masterbatory fantisies arereally kinky, himself as a VP prospect.
But, I digress, The motive is political. The insistance that Government employees pay for more of their healthcare cost is both prudent and reasonable. 12% is a bargain. The trough feeders at the Fire Departments and Police Departments, schools and Health Care agencies, need to begin to understand, they work for us and we have the right and the option to fire them, reduce thier pay as we see fit.
THESE ARE SELFISH, GREEDY DEMANDS.
Of course it’s political. But while Governor Walker’s political move will save the state tens of millions plus a year, the Democrat’s know that, more importantly, it will terminate their endless supply of filthy lucre. As it is now, the public employees’ salaries are paid by the taxpayers. When they get a paycheck, a portion is taken out automatically as union dues. The vast majority of those union dues go towards political donations. The vast vast majority of donations unions make are to Democrats to buy influence and power (just look at California for all the proof you need there). Something lost on the media is that one of the things Governor Walker wants to do is prohibit public employers from collecting dues and make it so that collective bargaining units are not require to pay dues. This strips the union bosses of their real powers, and stops the endless supply of election funds for Democrats. Hence, the union thugs taking to the streets in Wisconsin, complete with very uncivil signs (remember the pleas from Democrats post-Arizona?), racist slurs, even assaults (but what else would we expect from unions?). And the Democrat legislators (and I use that term loosely) flee the state rather than accept the democratic process that has led to this point. So you’re right dkmfan, this is political all over the place. But it’s the Democrats who are abusing the process because of it.
Folks, lets make sure that, this socialist Brown will not get his tax extension!
We must starve them to death!
Of course you failed to mention the impact that this legislation would have on the union’s ability to collectively bargain. Of course you would do that.
If this were NOT a political move, the Governor would be more than willing to negotiate on pension and healthcare costs within a bargaining framework. But this ain’t about that…it’s about diminishing the political influence of unions, plain and simple. Hiding behind the “fiscal responsiblity” argument just makes the Governor look disingenuous.
Negotiate on higher contributions to pensions and healthcare? Yes. Destroy collective bargaining (for all intents and purposes)? You’ve gone too far.
Could not agree more, anon. And sadly, everyone seems to forget that unions have improved working conditions for most of us who are not even members of a union. The dumbing down of America continues …
I couldn’t agree with you more.
Food is good and essential to you.
Too much of it will kill you.
We need Union diet.
I should add.
Can you imagine if the Hamburgers have the collective bargaining power to decide how many of them you must eat?
anon – first, let’s please distinguish between private and public unions. Private unions originally filled the function of providing workers with a voice in a largely unregulated world. The counterpressure to the unions push for higher wages and better benefits was the profitability of their company. Like a parasite, if the host company died, the union could no longer suck out more money and benefits. The unions actually tested this theory many times in the past several decades by pushing wages to the point that the companies came close to insolvency or actually were pushed over the edge into corporate oblivion. Unions have had to peel back wages and benefits just to ensure the survival. The real victors in the “union struggle” are the union bosses who minimally protect their members while reaping huge salaries, perks and other “bonuses” which are completely disproportional to the services they provide.
Public unions serve no useful purpose and have no counterpressure to prevent them from going out of control. Unlike private unions that need the viability of the host company to survive, public unions feed at the trough of the “virtually endless” public tax dollar. They negotiate against folks that have NO economic stake in the negotiation. The only very minor counterpressure is public opinion which public unions have largely been able to control through the creation of easy but really irrelevant catch phrases such as “its about the children,” “its a matter of public safety,” and the like.
Until the recent spate of huge state and local deficits, this cheerful game of public union “negotiations” went virtually unchecked throughout most of America. There were occasional outbursts of civic responsibility that would try to momentarily check the power of these union bullies, but those were sporadic at best. Theses outburst of fiscal responsibility were largely counteracted by the huge war chests of political funds created by the unions to ensure there continued preeminence. In California, the top EIGHT political contributors in the past five years are public unions.
Today we have finally reached the point where the ordinary citizen is starting to realize that we are going broke because of concessions made to these public unions. Sadly but not surprisingly, the public unions simply don’t care. They want YOU, the taxpayer, to continue to fund their piggery. They really don’t care whether private workers have suffered severely during this economic downturn. they really don’t care if their horribly inflated salaries and benefits slow down economic recovery. All they care about is preserving “what’s theirs” without even realizing or caring that “what’s theirs” is paid for by YOU.
I would love to hear ANYONE articulate the need for public unions. None of the specious arguments made about the need to combat corporate greed or of providing the worker a voice that are made in the private union context apply at all in the public union context.
Public unions are simply a phenomenon whose time should never have come and it is now time to end this horrible creation of the greedy union bosses.
Getting back to your silly post anon, I mention at the top that the proposed legislation would end SOME of the collective bargaining rights of the public unions (so your premise isn’t even sound), and this is a move long overdue.
“it’s about diminishing the political influence of unions, plain and simple”…….. Hmmmm
And what is wrong with that?
Everything…unless you’re desiring to live in a plutarchy.
“plutarchy”….. Hmmmmm
Beyond my ESL!
My dictionary shows “Plutarch”:
Plu·tarch (pl›“tärk”). A.D. 46?-120?. Greek biographer and philosopher. He wrote Parallel Lives, a collection of biographies that Shakespeare used in his Roman plays. –Plu·tarch“an (-tär“k…n) or Plu·tarch“i·an (-tär“k¶-…n) adj.
Sounds good to me!
I always want to be the Macbeth
Plutocracy is rule by the wealthy, or power provided by wealth. The combination of both plutocracy and oligarchy (a form of power structure in which power effectively rests with a small number of people. These people could be distinguished by royalty, wealth, family ties, corporate, or military control) is called plutarchy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutocracy
And what is wrong with that?
I lived 22 years in old communist Czechoslovakia with a population of about 18 Million. Only 2 millions were registered communists (the union types) who had every privilege.
The rest none.
Even here union guy can retire at age 55 with pension 1/4 million for rest of his life.
Taxpayers must guaranty the pension.
However 80% of population has no such guaranty an cant even suport 20% union workers.
Is this what you mean?……. The Plutocracy is?
As much as you are a jokester, you know exactly what it is like to live in a communist society! A small majority rule and the rest are sh(*
That is what is happening here. With the like of academia! People who go to college and teach in college feel privileged and rest are just sh*(!
Unions and their members have become the privileged and the rest of us just work to pay for the bast&^%s
I should add that you are stupid person who do not understand rules of free market.
If you want Owner of FaceBook be poor, do not post on FaceBook….. Etc. Etc. Etc.
But do not make laws about that as unions do!!!!
Do not force me to pay you!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I do not want to pay you!!!!!!!!!!!!
You are right anon – we are dangerously close to living in a Plutocracy – one in which the few rich and greedy union bosses will control the world. In California, the top eight political contributors are PUBLIC UNIONS. It is virtually impossible for even the wealthiest corporation to match the political spending power of these greedy and myopic rich union bosses. Truly frightening threat to our democratic way of life.
WOW. Just wow. Is that really what passes for factual in your universe?
Corporations spend 17 TIMES MORE on elections than do Unions nationwide. And this is a figure from BEFORE Citizens United.
What, are you just looking at individual races in California, and not soft money? How else do you come up with this?
You people sure have yourselves worked up over Unions, you gotta come back down to earth.
Geoff Willis,
If you think that unions are growing in power and corporations are fading in power, there’s simply not much one can say about that except what planet are you on?
Vern – my numbers came straight from the California Fair Political Practices Commission report for 2010. I will post the link as soon as I have time to track it down. The top corporate contributor was Edison that came in at number eight at about $27M as compared to the Teacher’s Union ($227M) and the Prison Guards ($207M).
Anon, I am on planet earth and actually study, read, learn and grow. I don’t view the world as “corporations v. unions” and I have discussed the limited circumstances under which private unions have some utility. I still have not heard a single cogent argument about the need for public employee unions.
Well try this one on for size with regard to public unions;
Our state governments and federal government are largely bought and paid for by corporate interests. If you think that these people, and these institutions, do not have “economic interests at stake” well, again, you’re living on another planet.
“Complete” lack of need for public unions? Not quite.
I’ll put it another way, and henceforth you won’t be able to say you’ve never heard a cogent argument for public unions. You may not agree with this, but it isn’t an “uncogent” argument;
The degree to which our government institutions are beholden to corporate money (which is considerable) represents the degree to which there is a need for public unions.
Problem is, it is an article of faith to Willis and his ilk that government institutions are NOT beholden to corporate money, but to labor money (and probably other “special interests” like environmental, feminist, racial equality, etc.)
If we can prove to him beyond the shadow of a doubt that it IS the corporations that pull our government’s strings… he will probably have to sit quietly in his tent like Achilles for a while.
Still for from cogent anon – what is the relationship between your perceived “corporate” power and the need to empower PUBLIC UNIONS? So, in your opinion, since we have influence of “evil” corporations we need to counteract that with “evil” unions? Are you saying that giving public unions the power to defuse corporate influence is the purpose of public unions? I think that would come as a shock to much of their membership.
The stated and primary purpose of public unions is to negotiate wages, benefits and rights for its members. Why should we use tax dollars to pay this private association to perform lobbying efforts that aren’t their primary mission? It seems like your tactic anon, is never to directly answer a question as asked but to deflect the argument back to your unrelated rant. We get it, you think that corporations have too much influence on government decisions. Great – blog about it and make your point but don’t deflect away from the point of this story that public unions are unnecessary, misusing public funds and sustaining themselves through huge political campaign contributions.
If you are saying that the primary purpose of public unions is to lobby their political positions in Sacramento and Washington, then you are actually supporting the conservative argument that union dues are primarily for political purposes and should be a discretionary not mandatory contribution from its members. If that is your argument, I would support it whole heartedly.
We are already living in a plutocracy, in case you haven’t noticed. Big money buys both sides of congress. The unions are the only way the middle class can compete with Big Oil and their like for the benefit of the middle class. We need MORE unions for more of the middle class!
Believe me, I’ve noticed.
I won’t repeat all of my statements about the complete lack of need for public unions but it would probably be worthwhile for you to take a look at them. On the other hand, if you think that the world is broken into either unions or big oil you have bigger problems.
“People who go to college and teach in college feel privileged and rest are just sh*(!”
Well by all means, lets push for having fewer people go to college. Lets let the Chinese and Indians and Europeans and Japanese send more people to college so we can become…well what is it exactly that we’d become, Quinn? What, would we all be more like those “real” Americans who used to farm and keep slaves? Yeah, lets have fewer people go to college so we can have more people working in fast food restaurants and shopping malls. Lets let the rest of the world pass us by while we denigrate the privilege, the honor, the blessing of having gone to college.
I Think going to college is very important, but without a doubt we need to purge our universities and colleges (especially in California) of these left wing idiots that have completely dumb down this society.
We just need to look at the product: Anon!
By the way it is a proven fact that teachers who have degree’s up the ying yang are no better at teaching than a teacher with a BA.
Take for example the entire SAUSD, all these supposed experts and university brain boxes and a pathetic results!
I would rather take a college educated teaching out of the district and put in a food food server, who actually liked to teach math and was good at it!
MQ,
The starting salary for a new teacher in Wisconsin is $25,222, the average salary is 46,390, how much LESS do you want to pay them???????
By the way the average student loan debt for a four year teaching degree is about 25,000.
The truth is that conservatives WANT you to take out all your bitter bile over your own hard lot out on other ordinary average hardworking americans and you are just too damn dumb and brainwashed to realize that these people are in the same boat,that they are your neighbors and friends and more importantly SHOULD be your allies.
It’s obvious that Faux news and/or right-wing radio have convinced you that public workers are your enemy and that it’s really the poor oppressed billionaires that need your help, yes keep voting “conservative”, you will stay poor and you will become even more mean and bitter, unfortunately you are too dumb to know why.
From the Christian Science Monitor;
“This attack on unions makes little sense in the realm of policy, but it makes perfect political sense. The American electorate is rightfully upset in the face of high unemployment and weak economic growth and is looking for someone to blame. Republicans across the country have decided to direct this anger toward public-sector workers rather than Wall Street, where it should lie. It’s all part of a high-priced political payback to the corporate CEOs who spent massive sums to elect supplicant politicians.”
Anonster,
You’re actually a little low – the average teacher salary in Wisconsin in 2009 was $48,743:
http://www.teachersalaryinfo.com/average-teacher-salary-wisconsin.html.
I note that you also conveniently forgot to mention the benefits that are causing most of the budget problems in Wisconsin and around the country. For example, the average Milwaukee public school teacher will receive over $100,000 in 2011 – $56,500 in salary and $43,505 in benefits. I’m sure it just slipped your mind:
http://michellemalkin.com/2011/02/17/watch-wisconsin-part-iv-the-salary-info-big-labor-doesnt-want-you-to-see/
And YOU people continue to neglect to mention that the unions have already agreed to all the benefit givebacks; they just refuse to sign off on giving up future ability to collectively bargain.
Newbie,
From The New Republic;
A new paper by the Economic Policy Institute breaks down the numbers and finds that Wisconsin’s public workers are, if anything, underpaid relative to their private sector counterparts. Of course, Walker and his allies insist that the real problem is not so much wages as health benefits and pensions. But the researcher who wrote the EPI paper, Jeffrey Keefe of Rutgers University, considers that possibility. Although public employees may pay less for some benefits–in particular, their health insurance typically comes with lower premiums and cost-sharing–he argues they still fare no better than their private sector counterparts when it comes to total compensation.
But I wonder if this whole debate misses the point. Suppose public workers really do make more than private sector workers. Who’s to say that the problem is public workers making too much, rather than private sector workers making too little?
As Paul Krugman argues today,
You don’t have to love unions, you don’t have to believe that their policy positions are always right, to recognize that they’re among the few influential players in our political system representing the interests of middle- and working-class Americans, as opposed to the wealthy. Indeed, if America has become more oligarchic and less democratic over the last 30 years–which it has–that’s to an important extent due to the decline of private-sector unions.
For the entire article;
http://www.tnr.com/blog/jonathan-cohn/83884/wisconsin-walker-public-worker-salary-benefit
That Krugman quote bears bolding. See below…
The good part is that free market always prevails by way of available resources!
When ever it was Sovet Union, Communist China or entire Eastern block, the free market eventualy prevail because the people couldn’t handle the union choke-hold.
The power of unions is self destructing so the unions are on the way out.
The Berlin Wall between the Unions and Free Market is crumbling down and fast.
Forget about the Tea Party expect a Bloodbath.
Please vote NO to Scott Walkers Budget Fix Bill proposal: Then next VOTE NO TO SCOTT WALKER THE GESTAPO!!
Scott Walker was voted in by the campaign money donated by the KOCH brothers who are trying to stop rich from paying taxes on their income over $250,000.00 and they are directing focus off of wall street? STOP THE INSANITY. Wisconsin has has the unions for 50 years and we all want our collective bargaining power, and NO I don’t work for the state nor am I in a public sector job.
“According to 2008 Census data, the state of Wisconsin and local governments in the state employed a total of 379,539 people. Of those employees, 240,747 were full-time employees receiving a net pay of $998,312,248 per month and 138,792 were part-time employees paid $123,619,591 per month. More than 57% of those employees, or 218,585 employees, were in education or higher education.”
A fast calculation based on these data show that there are 379,539 workers in state and local government jobs (full and part-time) in Wisconsin and they earned a combined total of $13,463,182,068 (yeah that’s billion) a year. Dividing these values gives you an average salary of about $35,472 per worker. A lot less than your example…of course this is just a crude average and does not show that many of those are much lower and some are much higher salaries (it’s an average)…couldn’t find better details since I need to get going to work…but this makes the point that government workers on average have, at best…lower middle-class incomes! And now they will take a hit on that income of about 15-20%….dropping the average to about $30,151!!!! Pretty low middle class!!!!
Oh and one more calculation that I hope folks like you start to think about, all those workers are a big piece of the state economy…you know, they spend those “taxpayer dollars” at lots of good republican businesses across the state…if we assume 175,000 workers at $35K per year and take a 18% reduction (based on the current proposal) that is 175,000 X $35,000 X 0.18 = $1,102,500,000!!!
That is basically, over $1 BILLION dollars taken out of the economy of the state….none of us will be laughing when that happens!!!! This is how we feel and we want back our freedoms and will wait the period it takes and then will get the signatures it takes to impeach Scott Walker.
“That is basically, over $1 BILLION dollars taken out of the economy of the state….none of us will be laughing when that happens!!!! This is how we feel and we want back our freedoms and will wait the period it takes and then will get the signatures it takes to impeach Scott Walker.”
MQ says:
All I can say: I can’t wait to see your fat A## defeated, once and for all.
! You’re a union hack plain and simple and like this state you and the rest of the REAL gestapo have been ripping off the tax payer for wayyyy too long and our hero Scott Walker is about to do what is needed all over this Country. Tell the union and the union members to get real. We are broke and we are not going to take anymore money from the struggling tax payer to pay for your big fat checks!
So sorry but go fu%$ yourself and God bless and sustain Scott Walker!
Well Michelle, number one, I’m not a union hack, and number two, I don’t have a fat ass, so if all you have left to throw at me is to attack my character, then I’m pretty much done with this blog. YOU and your friend, Geoff Willis being in the Real Estate/Mortgage business. In with law firms representing clients that like manipulate and need your services, I say good luck to you all, it lQQks like you’ve been doing a great job in your business keeping things going in CA, your economy is in far greater shape than ours. I’m not on here to pick your brains nor am I on here for you to throw out you exaggerated figures.
Scott Walker was bought into office and his two biggest contributors were the Koch Brothers and second was the Real Estate Industry. We all have the right to our opinions and your scumbag tactics of trying to make others feel low and less educated than yourselves only shows your lack of character. I never worked for a union, have a hell of a great ass, and would bring it to CA or wherever your’s is and let others be the judge. The thing is you haven’t seen mine, I have to take my pants down, I’ve seen yours, YOU wear it on your shoulders.
Now, I’m done on this blog, talk about the people and taxes and where we can really get some money, I say, we have paid what we’ve been required to pay as far as the Native Indians and perhaps they should start paying taxes and their fair share, what is your opinion, Mr. Geoff Willis. Not trying to be cocky or anything, I do have other ideas but this would be a great place to start. Perhaps we wouldn’t have to be dealing with all of this other BS then would we.
Truly!
I don’t care how Scott Walker got in and nor does most Americans, we just want him to start the ball rolling in getting unions of the back’s of the tax payer plain and simple.
Go Scott, bust the brotherhood!
Nice juggling of numbers in a completely deceptive way combining gross numbers across full part time, classified and unclassified and across all job types. The truth is that the average Wisconsin teacher has a salary approaching $100,000 per year. The unions, with paid mouthpieces like Barbara, have mastered the art of double speak and misinformation. The next thing she will say is “do it for the kids – do it for public safety.”
Fortunately, Barb, Glenn Beck has it all figured out: the Wisconsin unions are in cahoots with the Muslim Brotherhood, hoping to build one-world communist-islamist world order!
http://tpmlivewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/02/glenn-beck-wisconsin-unions-muslim-brotherhood-all-just-want-new-world-order-video.php?ref=fpblg
Well, it is a fact that scumbags do like to hang out with each other. No real difference in Wisconsin union hacks and the muslim brother hood!
Is there?
Damn, you’ve got to be the dumbest AND meanest person I know.
Thank you! Coming from you that is a compliment, because it really means that you can’t beat me intellectually, so you attack my character… YOU are not alone though you have good company in 20% of this country and the rest of the dumbest and meanest people in this country stand with me!
Gosh, I suppose Michelle O was right, this country is down right mean!
🙂
Okay, that’s five today. Think about what you want to say tomorrow.
That is why you are dangerous communist Nelson.
It is idiots like you who have destroyed the USA.
As to your democracy process in Egypt, see what Carter did in Iran. That too was democracy according this retard democrat. Now he talks same as he did when he put into the power Revolutionary Guard.
All I can say is, I pity Quinn’s children. Could you imagine how embarrassing it would be to have a mother like her???
“Could you imagine how embarrassing it would be to have a mother like her???”……… Hmmm
Like what?
In contrast to you LS a.k.a. moron mongoloid, she is well informed and has healthy opinions which creates individualism and progress for which this country was created.
For you bolshevik, the God created purgatory!
Go there and take Nelson with you.
P.S. I’ll take MQ for mother any time!
Especially in my nursing age!
Yeah, Stanislav, stands to reason you’d enjoy suckling at the bosom of stupidity.
I forgot that you socialist like to suck on cow’s milk, having a cow for mother is self evident from your bovine behavior.
O’h I forgot MQ.
If you want, you can comment on this blog’s BS at my “orangejuice.ocsatire.com” since the Bolsheviks count your peach.
Direct to Mr. Geoff Willis:
I’m not a “mouth piece” for any one, but we in Wisconsin consider Scott Walker sort of a “Koch Sucker” if you get my drift. Here at home our idea is this:
Walker, who cannot be recalled from office until next January, is not the only official who could be the subject of a recall election. Under Wisconsin election law, any elected official may be recalled from office:
(a) The qualified electors of the state, of any county, city, village, or town, of any congressional, legislative, judicial, town sanitary, or school district, or of any prosecutorial unit may petition for the recall of any incumbent elective official by filing a petition with the same official or agency with whom nomination papers or declarations of candidacy for the office are filed demanding the recall of the officeholder.
(b) Except as provided in par. (c), a petition for recall of an officer shall be signed by electors equal to at least 25% of the vote cast for the office of governor at the last election within the same district or territory as that of the officeholder being recalled. . . .
(s) No petition for recall of an officer may be offered for filing prior to the expiration of one year after commencement of the term of office for which the officer is elected.
Because the recall statute allows elected officials to serve for a full year before they are subject to recall, Walker himself is immune until January of 2012. Eight of Walker’s Republican allies in the state senate have served at least one year of their current term, however, and thus are eligible for a recall petition right now. If just three of these Republicans were to be replaced with Democrats, the state senate would flip to a Democratic-majority body.
The eight Republicans who can be recalled right now are:
Robert Cowles
Alberta Darling
Sheila Harsdorf
Luther Olsen
Randy Hopper
Glenn Grothman
Mary Lazich
Dan Kapanke
When next January rolls around, a little over 500,000 petition signatures will be necessary to trigger a recall election for Gov. Walker.
UPDATE An e-mailer asks how many signatures are required to trigger a recall election for an individual senator. The exact number will vary by district according to how many people cast a vote for governor in that district, but if you divide the approximately 500,000 signatures needed to recall Walker by the 33 senate districts, it adds up to between 15,000-16,000 signatures per senator.
Walker pushed through $140 million in new spending for Corporate lobbyists last month. Pretty funny, since this whole kerfuffle is over $137 million.
So as someone once told me, actually a few minutes ago, “Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.” Well, I’m all for annoying the pig, for what that’s worth.
So don’t judge me, YOU don’t know me at all and you can juggle or jiggle what ever you want to, then you let me know of a teacher in Wisconsin that is paid or as you say most that are paid close to your figures. I’ll lead a few Wisconsin teachers and prison guards to your blog here Vern and see what they have to say to Mr. “Numbers”. I’ve seen quite a few of those paychecks first hand and being a lady, I’ll sign off and send a link so you can get a few of your facts straight in California. Bye for now, have a great day my friend, Hugs and Smiles coming from GB home of the Packers. Right back at ya there, Mr. Willis
Thank you for the detailed and completely irrelevant information about Wisconsin recall law. Governor Walker received more than a hundred thousand votes than his opponent in a democratic election in which he ran on a platform of fiscal conservancy. He is now implementing that platform. He has done the unthinkable in the mindless view of union hacks such as yourself – he has attacked your false sense of entitlement to all of the fruits of gorging at the public tax trough. A recall election would not only be unnecessary and grossly expensive to the public (not that you or your fat union bosses would care about that) it is also an attack on the democratic process. Recall was always there to handle impeachable offenses or dereliction of duty, not a second bite at the apple for the spoiled and pouting union brats that heard a new word for the first time “NO!”
DITTO!
Stan. Did you just say ditto? And you called me out for using the same word?
It wouldn’t be prudent for me to retype entire comment but it would be prudent for you to retype one word BULLSHIT.
“Governor Walker received more than a hundred thousand votes than his opponent”
And Obama received almost 10 MILLION more votes than his opponent, yet we have seen multiple Tea Party rallies decrying his agenda. You right-wingers need to get some consistency to your crapola, otherwise anyone with over 3 functioning brain cells will start to see through your tall tales and outright lies.*
Not surprisingly the go-to station for all things nutty, Faux News has been decrying the WI union protests but actively promoted the Tea Party protests.
http://mediamatters.org/research/201102180015
*Lucky for you Geoff, that Stanislav, MQ, and the great one have less than one functioning brain cell between them, so they will always be on your side.
With CNN’s coverage is so bad that one anchor sincerely asked someone at the scene of the protests if “everyone in Wisconsin supported the protests.”
“Decrying someone’s agenda” and showing up at someone’s private residence and threatening them are two different things. These folks are no debating policy, they are comparing the governor and his supporters to Nazis, they have posters with gun sites aimed at the governor and other signs literally calling for the death of the governor and his supporters.
“These folks are no debating policy, they are comparing the governor and his supporters to Nazis, they have posters with gun sites aimed at the governor and other signs literally calling for the death of the governor and his supporters.”
Like these Tea Bagger’s signs protesting Obama 4/09;
Barack Hussein Obama….The new face of Hitler
The American taxpayers are the Jews for Obama’s ovens
Obama’s plan….White Slavery
Guns Tomorrow!
Barack Obama supports abortion,sodomy, socialism and the new world order
Obama loves taxes…loves babykilling!
Here’s some quotes from some gun-toting Tea partiers in NM;
Protestors Explain
Clearly, some on the right believe that Obama is anti-American in some way and that another witch hunt or a possible armed insurrection might be necessary to preserver our constitution. Take this guy, quoted in the Alamogordo Daily News article:
Jim Kizer, of Alamogordo, carried his .444 Marlin rifle and .41 Smith and Wesson Magnum pistol to the event.
“I don’t like what the Democrats are doing to our country,” said Kizer. “I’m a Korean vet and I grew up in Alaska during World War II. I’ve fought Communists all my life, and now our government is being taken over by them. That’s why I’m here.”
In the video above, gun rally-Obama protest participant James of Tularosa explains why he’s upset:
“I’m everything Obama hates. He’s not too supportive of Israel, he’s not too supportive of the Second Amendment. He’s definitely not too supportive of the American flag … A lot of the government now is intimidating people, that we’re the criminals, we’re the terrorists, not the terrorists.”
A man from Las Cruces comments on his decision to openly carry a gun at the demonstration:
“It’s a very open threat. If they try to take over the country completely as a socialist communist then they’re going to have to answer. Political power comes from the barrel of a gun as their own people said.
… They’re pushing us to our limits, that’s why we’re out here.
When asked what the limit would be that would trigger barrel of a gun type action, the same man replies,
“… I’m not saying what that is because the element of surprise is the main thing in any military victory, which we will do with the constitution if we have to. It’s up to them to listen to us now to avoid that.”
In other words, the federal government will have to obey the dictates of this guy and his pals or their guns will be used to strike back and get their way without the formality of an election or a ballot box.
Yeah, well, can we all just agree that it’s lame and unhelpful for either side in American politics to be comparing the other side to Hitler and the Nazis? I call Godwin on everybody.
The real point to be made about Geoff’s comment is that the right-wing is trying to portray these protestors as “bad”, where the Tea Party protestors were “good”.
Media Matters has the low down (i.e.transcripts) of Faux news and their very biased coverage of both groups;
Fox Slams WI Protests But Cheered Tea Party Protests
http://mediamatters.org/research/201102180015
Today’s conservatives and their noise machine (FOX, Rush, etc.) are so characterized by their hypocrisy and convenient double standards, they’re practically a caricature of themselves.
I try to avoid being their mirror image that way. I see no upside to it.
Anonster, please click on the video link near the bottom of the story to see the juxtaposition of statements made by leftist politicians and commentators about how words of hate ONLY come from the left, and then cut to the union protests in Wisconsin.
I have a lot of stuff posted here, but I don’t think that I would ever say that NO ONE on the right speaks words of hate or takes things to far. In fact it is my experience that the right will self critique itself and is more than willing to call its members out when things go to far,
The left seems to express that it can do no wrong and when caught changes the subject rather than truly admit that it messed up.
I did watch the video, there were a couple of over the top signs but most of them were on target.
The “don’t retreat-reload” sign was a spoof of Sarah Palin’s infamous crosshairs attack ad on Dems,for which, not she or any other Republican (to my knowledge) has EVER apologized.
I also noticed that the WI signs had caveats on them, as the above one did, “repeal him” was next to the picture of Walker, “death to tyrants” had “political” above it and “kill the bill”, well, trying to pretend that that is violent rhetoric just makes you seem silly.
I think the comparisons to Hitler are making a pretty “cogent” point, he WAS a union buster, from News Junkie Dailey;
“On May 2nd, 1933, the day after Labor day, Nazi groups occupied union halls and labor leaders were arrested. Trade Unions were outlawed by Adolf Hitler, while collective bargaining and the right to strike was abolished. This was the beginning of a consolidation of power by the fascist regime which systematically wiped out all opposition groups, starting with unions, liberals, socialists, and communists using Himmler’s state police.”
Overall the protests in WI have been very peaceful, a lot of singing, dancing and chanting, oh my!
Madison – For Madison police, the quietest place Saturday was at a processing center set up to deal with people facing arrest as tea party activists and labor demonstrators held competing rallies at the state Capitol.
Not only were there no arrests, but no major incidents were reported said police spokesman Joel DeSpain.
Anonster- your latest post actually made some points about the tongue and cheek nature of some protest signs of both parties. However, whether or not there is any similarity between Hitler’s abolishment of the unions and a reasonable request for a mild rollback of benefits (which is a little like comparing murder and a fender bender) the left would have gone nuts and howled at the moon from every corner of the globe. Instead you defend it. If anyone from the right had put cross hairs on another human being, the howling would have recommended. Instead you call it playful.
Geoff, I’ve been preoccupied with my Dave Ellis story, but I see you are still parroting the GOP line that all Governor Walker is doing is asking for a “mild rollback of benefits.”
Actually the Wisconsin unions have ALREADY AGREED to this “mild rollback of benefits” – something I haven’t seen mentioned yet on this thread.
This is pure camouflage – what Walker’s bill is about, and what the whole controversy about, is stripping the unions of any rights to negotiate in the future. (Which is NOT all that far from what Hitler did – the inability to negotiate would essentially render the unions useless.) If you continue to leave that out, you’re not being honest.
Vern – “what the whole controversy about, is stripping the unions of any rights to negotiate in the future.”
Opening paragraph of story – “To carry out these campaign promises (I know, we aren’t used to that kind of promise keeping here in California Governor Brown), the Governor has floated a proposal that is evidently supported by both houses of the state legislature that would 1) eliminate some collective bargaining rights”
I don’t think that I have avoided this at all. Your post, like those of ALL of those making similar arguments, disingenuously argue or at least imply that Governor Walker’s proposal would END collective bargaining. This is simply untrue. His plan would allow the state to have some budgetary control.
I guess I would still ask – why are public unions necessary at all since given the lack of “counterpressure” that exists on the private side. Normally, the reason given for unions is to counter the intimidation and unfair bargaining power of the corporation – I don’t that logic applying to public unions.
Vern – “(Which is NOT all that far from what Hitler did – the inability to negotiate would essentially render the unions useless.)”
Really? Destruction of the entire PRIVATE union system and a minor rollback of SOME collective bargaining rights are the same. Besides, that misses the real point of the comparison. Are you saying that if passed Governor Walkers legislation would lead to the extermination of 6,000,000 people of any group? If that is what you are trying to argue, then the Hitler comparison is relevant. Unless you are insane, you will see that this comparison is wholly out of place.
Geoff.
I don’t think we need go very far to see which side uses the most inflammatory rhetoric, here’s a quick survey of the comments right here on the OJ.
**********************************************************************
From THE RIGHT;
” The union zealots are an incredible bunch of thugs, telling lies, intimidating people, making hateful statements”
” If we don’t stand up to them now, later when we are forced to, EVENTUAL VIOLENCE WILL RESULT and worse.”
“What a garbage these unions, socialists and progressives are?”
“If you want 6,000,000 dead Jews vote against Wisconsin’s new Governor!”
“STANDING UP TO THESE socialist thugs”
“..from a union goon”
“We must starve them to death!”
“Like a parasite, if the host company died, the union could no longer suck out more money and benefits.”
“…end this horrible creation of the greedy union bosses.”
“Unions and their members have become the privileged and the rest of us just work to pay for the bast&^%s”
“I should add that you are stupid person”
“the few rich and greedy union bosses will control the world. ….of these greedy and myopic rich union bosses. Truly frightening threat to our democratic way of life.”
“… these left wing idiots that have completely dumb down this society.”
“… the union choke-hold.”
“Forget about the Tea Party expect a Bloodbath.”
“All I can say: I can’t wait to see your fat A## defeated, once and for all.”
” You’re a union hack plain and simple and like this state you and the rest of the REAL gestapo have been ripping off the tax payer for wayyyy too long…’
“So sorry but go fu%$ yourself and God bless and sustain Scott Walker!”
“Go Scott, bust the brotherhood!”
“..it is a fact that scumbags do like to hang out with each other. No real difference in Wisconsin union hacks and the muslim brother hood!”
“That is why you are dangerous communist Nelson.
It is idiots like you who have destroyed the USA.”
“…this retard democrat.”
“In contrast to you LS a.k.a. moron mongoloid, …..For you bolshevik, the God created purgatory!”
“Go there and take Nelson with you.”
“I forgot that you socialist like to suck on cow’s milk, having a cow for mother is self evident from your bovine behavior.”
” …in the mindless view of union hacks such as yourself – he has attacked your false sense of entitlement to all of the fruits of gorging at the public tax trough. … (not that you or your fat union bosses would care about that) it is also an attack on the democratic process.”
“…. not a second bite at the apple for the spoiled and pouting union brats that heard a new word for the first time “NO!”
“i was waiting for the commi /socialist mao che wearing annoster to show her ugly face in here . hey nobama lover lets see you rip on the union goons with hitler mustaches . aka your folks . you do it with tea parties OH ITS OK THEY ARE REPS . . mr willis right on way to put that union hack in her place . REALITY CHECK . WE HAVE NO MORE MONEY TO SUPPORT YOUR BUTT .. try paying for stuff on your own like the rest of us .. because WITHOUT OUR MONEY (TAXPAYERS ) YOU ARE NOTHING”
“The Nelson is pathetic pipsqueak”
“…. loser!”
“It is liberals and progressives who are forcing ridiculous and inhuman rules and are terrorizing the public.”
“..they are all feminized males with homosexual and liberal tendencies. (Alan Alda type).
In other wards pussies ”
************************************************************************
From THE LEFT;
“The dumbing down of America continues …”
“.. you gotta come back down to earth.”
“…not much one can say about that except what planet are you on?”
“…well, again, you’re living on another planet.”
“… you are just too damn dumb and brainwashed to realize…”
“.. you will stay poor and you will become even more mean and bitter, unfortunately you are too dumb to know why.”
” VOTE NO TO SCOTT WALKER THE GESTAPO!!”
” We all have the right to our opinions and your scumbag tactics of trying to make others feel low and less educated than yourselves only shows your lack of character.”
” I never worked for a union, have a hell of a great ass, …. I’ve seen yours, YOU wear it on your shoulders.”
“Damn, you’ve got to be the dumbest AND meanest person I know.”
“All I can say is, I pity Quinn’s children. Could you imagine how embarrassing it would be to have a mother like her???”
“Yeah, Stanislav, stands to reason you’d enjoy suckling at the bosom of stupidity.”
“..we in Wisconsin consider Scott Walker sort of a “Koch Sucker” if you get my drift.”
” … Hugs and Smiles coming from GB home of the Packers. Right back at ya there, Mr. Willis”
“Lucky for you Geoff, that Stanislav, MQ, and the great one have less than one functioning brain cell between them, so they will always be on your side.”
“…Faux news and their very biased coverage..”
“…conservatives and their noise machine (FOX, Rush, etc.) are so characterized by their hypocrisy and convenient double standards, they’re practically a caricature of themselves.”
“…you are still parroting the GOP line..”
“You can sure dish it out, but you’re a thin-skinned little hag when it comes to taking it.”
**********************************************************************
And the WINNER for MOST DELUSIONAL………………………………………….
STANISLAV STAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
“Well, the conservative and normal people are not aggressive. They enjoying their life and are happy.”
“Yeah, well, can we all just agree that it’s lame and unhelpful for either side in American politics to be comparing the other side to Hitler and the Nazis? I call Godwin on everybody.”
Vern, stop trying to inject logic and reason into the argument, you’re making your lefty cohorts look bad.
Ms. Tappa may be interested to know that someone is already on the recall bandwagon. Unfortunately for her, it is to recall the 14 Democrats who have eviscerated the democratic process in her state by taking their ball and fleeing the jurisdiction to prevent a vote – you know, the way the legislative process is supposed to operate in the United States: http://recalltheawol.com/
Oh, and she can reference my earlier post for the facts on teacher salaries in her state. I will take the word of a news source over her anecdotes any day of the week. I still see all of the posts opposing Governor Walker conveniently ignoring the huge benefits public employees in Wisconsin enjoy.
It looks like the anti-democratic fever Wisconsin Democratic Senators are suffering from is catching: http://www.indystar.com/article/20110222/NEWS/110222004/House-Democrats-flee-Indiana-stop-votes?odyssey=mod|breaking|text|IndyStar.com
I can only imagine how the media and the left would be howling if it were the Republicans who were ignoring well over 200 years of representative democracy in this great nation. I’m so glad that Democrats in Wisconsin and now Indiana think so much of their constitutents that they would revert to such childish behavior to protect their precious union money at the expense of the will of the people. Nice party you have there anonster, anon, etc.
Another FYI Newbie, its been done before;
Here are a few other walkouts during the last twenty years from a 2003 survey of the American Society of Legislative Clerks and Secretaries by Brenda Erickson:
California Assembly, 1994: When the Assembly was evenly split, 40-40, between Democrats and Republicans, the Republican members refused to show up for floor sessions in an effort to prevent Democrats from electing Willie Brown as speaker with less than a majority vote. The Republicans stayed out for several days but finally relented in January 1995. The Democrats proceeded to establish a quorum by “disqualifying” one of the Republicans and elected Brown as speaker on a 40-39 vote.
Alabama Senate, 1999: With a Democratic majority, newly elected Republican Lt. Governor Steve Windom was the ex-officio president of the Senate at the outset of the 1999 session in March. Serving as chair, he forced through a new set of rules that granted him the bulk of the power in the Senate by unanimous consent, refusing to recognize the objections of majority Democrats. The Democrats walked out and denied a quorum for a period of a week. Once they returned, a series of adjournments was called until Governor Don Siegelman (D) convened a special session at which compromise rules were adopted. The balance of power went to the president pro tem, a Democrat, but the lieutenant governor was given some limited powers of appointment and consultation on bill assignments.
Nevada Senate, 1999: In a complicated conflict over privatization of workers’ compensation, the entire Republican majority left the chamber in the middle of a night session in anger over a speech by a Democrat. The minority Democrats who remained in the chamber issued a call of the house. The sergeant-at-arms was able to round up enough Republicans to make a quorum, and the Democrats proceeded to pass two bills. Later that day, the Republicans returned and, after a motion to reconsider by two of the Republicans who had been compelled to attend, overturned the Senate’s actions on those bills.
“*Lucky for you Geoff, that Stanislav, MQ, and the great one have less than one functioning brain cell between them, so they will always be on your side.”
MQ says:
ATTAACCKKKKKKKKK!
Liberals so nice and classy!
Lads, don’t listen to daddy’s girl. I am VERY proud to be in your corner! 🙂
Lets, sit back and enjoy watching unions and liberals crash and burn!
Cheers!
“ATTAACCKKKKKKKKK!
Liberals so nice and classy!”
Classy like your ATTAACCKKKKKKK on Barbara Tappa?
“All I can say: I can’t wait to see your fat A## defeated, once and for all.
! You’re a union hack plain and simple and like this state you and the rest of the REAL gestapo have been ripping off the tax payer for wayyyy too long and our hero Scott Walker is about to do what is needed all over this Country.
So sorry but go fu%$ yourself and God bless and sustain Scott Walker!”
You can sure dish it out, but you’re a thin-skinned little hag when it comes to taking it.
Exactly, I felt like banning her altogether after she wrote that to my nice friend Barb Tappa in Wisconsin, she’s lucky I only re-instated her five-comment limit.
By the way, this is Barb: Not only NOT a union member or “shill” but also not a “fat ass.” What do you imagine Quinn looks like?
So attractive = intelligent and correct? The reason that I called her a union shill is that she was quoting from the union propaganda almost verbatim.
No, I just know that, lik most women, she didn’t appreciate having her ass called fat by a stranger.
Plus what I saw in her first comment was her trying to improvise a quick calculation to figure out the average teacher salary – that didn’t look like she was prepared with any “propaganda.”
I never understand the personalization of these attacks, its just debate and discussion to me. Its the ideas and they way they are expressed that matter to me.
Well, can you communicate that to your pep squad?
Michelle is far too modest to respond, but I’ve treasured this photo of her ever since we dated in Ireland 40+ years ago…
Wow, Michelle’s a lot more attractive than I pictured her!
Go for it mama:)
LOL:
I don’t have red hair, sorry to break your heart’s!
And I don’t think you dated me, I think it was my granny:)
If you all must know what I look like, I am going to tell you: I am 700lbs, green skin and you would not like to see me mad!
🙂
Unions have destroyed thousands of jobs, and have practically destroyed thousands of young lives due to an education system that works for the union members and not for the children.
If I am not being nice to Barb, maybe she should not be going around calling people a nazi!
Not nice Barb!
i was waiting for the commi /socialist mao che wearing annoster to show her ugly face in here . hey nobama lover lets see you rip on the union goons with hitler mustaches . aka your folks . you do it with tea parties OH ITS OK THEY ARE REPS . . mr willis right on way to put that union hack in her place . REALITY CHECK . WE HAVE NO MORE MONEY TO SUPPORT YOUR BUTT .. try paying for stuff on your own like the rest of us .. because WITHOUT OUR MONEY (TAXPAYERS ) YOU ARE NOTHING
That fact that I would be censored is quite an honor. The fact the Vern is censoring me, makes it quite obvious that I speak the truth and nothing but the truth so help me God!
I cannot be attacked, disarmed, intimidated or have my FEELING crushed. I am to the liberals their worst nightmare and so they will not let me be heard!
Simple!
Thanks Vern, you have my day, year!
VIA ME! 🙂
The Nelson is pathetic pipsqueak who like the power by joining all popular left wing power groups so he can intimidate by their jingoistic dogmatism and stigmatization by by calling everyone hater, racist, anti-semi, etc, etc, etc.
However, his power groups are dropping dead around him like flies.
There is majority of us, the proud and free Americans.
Time to time we must rise and clean up the mess.
That time is now!….. as written by Mayas in stone.
The revolutionary year 2012 is approaching fast!
You’re not censored, you just have a five-comment-per-day limit. If you have anything to say, I wouldn’t waste my comments on victory laps.
That is pretty desperate and threatening…. loser!
“However, his power groups are dropping dead around him like flies.
There is majority of us, the proud and free Americans.
Time to time we must rise and clean up the mess.
That time is now!….. as written by Mayas in stone.
The revolutionary year 2012 is approaching fast!”
MQ says:
Not only do we have the quantity of people we have a quality of people. Look who We are: Immigrants and all freedom loving people who love this country and want only for her to continue to be great. She is the last hope for many in this world.
Vern, Anonster’s, anon’s, Naui’s of this world can have their say and so they should, but really when it comes down to it, good always prevails over evil and the ignorant in this land!
Simply the truth is the truth!
michell your so right their is only about 15-20 percent of them who call themselves libs . the problem comes in their mind the 15-20 percent . think they are the majorty .
That many CALL themselves liberal, but another 30 percent or more are much more liberal than they think, they’ve just been convinced that’s a bad word. Polls on nearly any major issue confirm that, as does Obama’s election.
Well, the conservative and normal people are not aggressive. They enjoying their life and are happy.
It is liberals and progressives who are forcing ridiculous and inhuman rules and are terrorizing the public.
Such people will always look as majority.
obamas election =fool me once shame on you but i dont think the people will be hoodwinked by nobama again . if the reps can get a decent candidate out there nobama is toast .
With Reagan dead there is no decent candidate out there Democrat, Republican nor Independent. They are all feminized males with homosexual and liberal tendencies. (Alan Alda type).
In other wards pussies like Santa Ana Police Chief Walters (yellow coward) who condones killing of Mother Susie Young Kim in front of her 18 month old child, bluets flying just inches around the child’s head, by SAPD13.
And for what?…… alleged DUY? (They never released actual alcohol level nor did they released any official report)
Geoff,
“I have searched far and wide for any rationale for the need for public unions.”
Hope this helps.
From the Washington Post by Ezra Klein;
“Unions are not just about challenging the “might and greed” of private-sector CEOs, but about recognizing the different incentives faced by managers and workers, and about correcting the tremendous power imbalance between those who can be fired for asking too many questions or demanding a different bargain and those who get to do the firing and would prefer a more submissive workforce and a status quo that they’ve created and defined.”
Anonster – each and every one of your posts have centered around the logic behind PRIVATE unions, not PUBLIC unions. In the private sector, civil service protections make it virtually impossible to fire a worker – certainly for “asking too many questions.” You are still misfiring (excuse the pun).
Geoff,
From Politifact;
Says under his budget-repair bill, “collective bargaining is fully intact.”
Scott Walker on Friday, February 18th, 2011
(Walker’s statement got the “Pants on Fire” rating)
In contending that collective bargaining would remain fully intact, Walker mixed civil service protections with collective bargaining rights.
They are not the same.
Civil service protections
The protections are put into state law by the Legislature, or into a local ordinance by a city council, or village or town board, said public-sector employer attorney Andrew Phillips. He is general counsel for the Wisconsin Counties Association and his Mequon firm also represents municipalities and school districts.
Currently, state employees are covered by civil service, but most local government employees don’t have it and NO PUBLIC SCHOOL EMPLOYEES DO, Phillips said.
Phillips said civil service protections, among other things, specify employee rights to things such as vacation and overtime; prohibit termination for reasons other than just cause; and create procedures for employees to file grievances and to have those complaints heard.
What they don’t provide, he said, is any right for employees to bargain with their employers over those issues and others. The terms are set by the employer.
Collective bargaining rights
Two sections of state law — one for state workers and one for local government and public school employees — give public employees the right in Wisconsin to collectively bargain.
The law issues a mandate to both the employer (the government) and the collective bargaining unit (employees represented by a union).
The two sides must “meet and confer at reasonable times, in good faith, with the intention of reaching an agreement” on wages, hours, fringe benefits and conditions of employment.
In other words, the workers — through their union — have a say in those areas. They do not have such a say under civil service rules.
For the full article;
http://politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2011/feb/18/scott-walker/wisconsin-gov-scott-walker-says-his-budget-repair-/
Anonster – please tell the whole story. Classified school employees in Wisconsin (janitors, lunch servers, etc) DO have civil service protections. While school teachers do not, they DO have Tenure after four years of teaching and after that can only be terminated for committing a crime or similar act.
I discussed civil service as an example of why public unions are not needed, i.e. in a private company a “problem” employee can be terminated if “cause” can be shown. This risk does not exist in the civil service or tenure context.
Geoff,
Public unions, like all unions, provide a wide range of services to their members, they negotiate wages, benefits, pensions, working conditions etc., your wrong and biased example of tenure is just one leg -of-the-stool and by the way, tenure is also under attack.
I found this good description of WHY PUBLIC UNIONS ARE NECESSARY in The Economist;
“..try considering how employees’ wage negotiations with the government might look if there were no public-sector unions. In most lines of work, individuals’ power to negotiate higher wages with large organizations is very limited. In government employment, individuals’ power to negotiate higher wages is utterly non-existent. An individual teacher who bargains with a private school for a higher wage than her peers is going to have a tough negotiation on her hands; an individual teacher who tries to bargain with the City of Milwaukee for a higher wage than her peers is going to be laughed out of the superintendent’s office. In his initial post on this subject, my colleague ventured that civil servants would constitute a powerful bloc able to protect their wages even without unions. I’m not really sure what this means. Through what mechanism are civil servants supposed to bargain for wage increases if they don’t have unions? Who’s supposed to do the bargaining?”
Not sure your point since the proposed Wisconsin law would not impact the union’s ability to have collective bargaining over wages without restriction. Not really sure that is even necessary since free market would drive equilibrium for salaries for such a large and nationwide profession.
Geoff,
Your dodging your own question, you were looking for a reason why public unions were needed, I gave you one, to negotiate wages and benefits, if the union isn’t doing it who will?
Didn’t dodge the question at all – “Not really sure that is even necessary since free market would drive equilibrium for salaries for such a large and nationwide profession.”
Geoff,
Be specific, how would “free market” created “equilibrium” “nationwide” help an individual negotiate better pay, what may be adequate pay in Arkansas would not be a livable wage in New York city, without union representation teacher salaries would be in a race to the bottom just like private sector workers are now.
Why do you conservatives find what public sector jobs provide, fair compensation, adequate benefits and a dignified retirement so offensive and awful?
The middle class in this country was built and sustained by making pay and working conditions better for more people NOT by making them worse, you fools are cutting your own throats.
This “fool” will stand by all of the other statements made on this post.
Geoff,
In other words, YOU DON’T KNOW.
Not to mention the misuse of the term “rationale” and Ezra Klein in the same sentence for any reason.
Newbie,
I hate, just hate having to expose your ignorance/stupidity, but FYI, “rationale” and rational DON’T mean the same thing.
ra·tion·ale
[rash-uh-nal]
–noun
1.
the fundamental reason or reasons serving to account for something.
ra·tion·al
[rash-uh-nl, rash-nl]
–adjective
1.
agreeable to reason; reasonable; sensible: a rational plan for economic development.
2.
having or exercising reason, sound judgment, or good sense: a calm and rational negotiator.
Anonster,
I had no idea you were a mind reader as well as a union supporter. They could use a good man (or woman) like you in Wisconsin about now to explain why the Democrat Senators fled the state (I’m just guessing, but I think it may have something to do with all that money the unions throw at them, but you’re the psychic):
psy-chic
si-kik
-noun
1. a : a person apparently sensitive to nonphysical forces b : medium 2d
2: psychic phenomena
Newbie,
One doesn’t need to be a “psy-chic” to know that you didn’t know the meaning of “rationale”.
Free tip; Staunch the bleeding and fess up to your ignorance/stupidity, it will be far less painful in the long run or at the very least, try to pretend that you never saw my post.
Anonster, I think you should relearn your own language!
The purpose of the language is the [communication] and not been counting.
Every word has root meaning, in this case the root is “reason”
1) the fundamental reason or reasons serving to account for something.
2) agreeable to reason; reasonable; sensible: a rational plan for economic development.
3) having or exercising reason, sound judgment, or good sense: a calm and rational negotiator.
Therefore, for a purpose of communication the “rationale” and “rational” are synonymous.
Trust me!
I, as a foreign in 1969 not knowing one single word of English, doped off in the middle of the Manhattan would understand what you mean one way or the other.
Now repeat after me: “I Anonster am an idiot or idiote”.
Not much difference is it?
Oh, Jesus. A lesson in the subtleties of English from Stan?
No, Stan, Anonster’s right, and if Newbie is up to biting the bullet he’ll admit she’s right.
The adjective “rational” implies a value judgment that some quality thought has gone into a position or action – Newbie meant to dismiss Ezra Klein because he finds him irrational.
“Rationale,” a noun, doesn’t imply any such value judgment and just means the reason someone does or says something, or even just the reason they offer up for doing or saying something, it could even be a stupid or dishonest reason. You can have a rational rationale or an irrational rationale, not that anybody would say that. But that’s how our English language has evolved, trust me. I was born here.
Comrade,
I am not your piano so that you can play me off key.
This is the classical case of linguistic paradox.
Back to school….. take it from Prof. Stanislav Star, ESL Undergraduate, Worlds University Of Life. (Delta-Zeta-Eta)
Geoff,
“I have searched far and wide for any rationale for the need for public unions.”
MQ says:
Thought you were the one with all the brains. While you searched far and wide for a rationale, I came up with this rationale of why there is a NEED to get rid of unions in a second!
They are corrupt, political tools and have destroyed manufacturing, education and have brought states like California to the brink of bankruptcy with the concession’s that were completely unsustainable.
Tomorrow Wisconsin will be the first state in many that will take away the power from the powerful, corrupt and the greedy!
I have to admit, I can not wait for tomorrow:)
Before you start berating and attacking me in you’re loving way!
Mein Kampf by Adolf Hitler
Volume Two: The National Socialist Movement
Chapter XII: The Trade Union Question
I believe that I have adequately answered the first question. As things stand today, the trade unions in my opinion cannot be dispensed with. On the contrary, they are among the most important institutions of the nation’s economic life. Their significance lies not only in the social and political field, but even more in the general field of national politics. A people whose broad masses, through a sound trade-union movement, obtain the satisfaction of their living requirements and at the same time an education, will be tremendously strengthened in its power of resistance in the struggle for existence.
As already emphasized, the germ cells for the economic chambers will have to reside in bodies representing the most varied occupations, hence above all in the trade unions. And if this future body representing the estates and the central economic parliament are to constitute a National Socialist institution, these important germ cells must also embody a National Socialist attitude and conception. The institutions of the movement are to be transferred to the state, but the state cannot suddenly conjure up the required institutions from the void, unless they are to remain utterly lifeless structures.
MQ says:
Germ Cells!!!!!!!!
Stanislav Star said: “Folks, lets make sure that, this socialist Brown will not get his tax extension! We must starve them to death!”
Truer words have never been spoken.
Good job Fiala.
I never thought that I would say those words.
junior
“Good job Fiala. I never thought that I would say those words.”…… Hmmmm
Yes you thought of it!
But like everyone here who speaks the truth you have been stigmatized not do so.
Especially by this fatso bully Mr. Sean Mill. Interesting character this Mill. Pedroza once said that Mill knows where the skeletons are buried in Santa Ana City Hall. Cant wait when this ghoul starts feeding from these shallow graves.
Did you see what is happing in Detroit? They can no longer borrow and they are having to close down half their schools. That means over 60 students per-class room!
It’s only a matter of time, before LUSD follows!
It has to play itself out!
The socialists do not understand money and where they come from.
They think that money come from the reach people.
geoff great job . like a trube far left lib anonster does not give you the whole story or twist the story to make her side seem like the right side . way to get her back on track . she is on the VERY FAR LEFT LANE .
Obama will be President again, trust me. Now for the end game.
1) Koch Brothers get their puppet Governor Walker in power
2) Governor Walker gins up a crisis
3) Democrats and Progressives take the bait and counter-protest on collective bargaining
4) Governor Walker will compromise on collective bargaining if the rest of the budget is passed as is
5) Bill passes, with trojan horse give-a-way to the Koch Brothers nested in
6) Koch Brothers will buy Wisconsin state-owned power plants for pennies on the dollar in closed unsolicitated bids for which there will be no oversight
7) Koch Brothers get the best vertical monopoly in a generation
SECTION 44. 16.896 of the statutes is created to read:
16.896 Sale or contractual operation of state−owned heating, cooling,
and power plants. (1) Notwithstanding ss. 13.48 (14) (am) and 16.705 (1), the
department may sell any state−owned heating, cooling, and power plant or may
contract with a private entity for the operation of any such plant, with or without
solicitation of bids, for any amount that the department determines to be in the best
interest of the state. Notwithstanding ss. 196.49 and 196.80, no approval or
certification of the public service commission is necessary for a public utility to
purchase, or contract for the operation of, such a plant, and any such purchase is
considered to be in the public interest and to comply with the criteria for certification
of a project under s. 196.49 (3) (b).
There are two big whoppers in this section, which is passing through the zeitgeist like ships in the night.
It will allow the Koch Brothers to buy or contract to operate state−owned heating, cooling, and power plants in Wisconsin without a solicitation of bids.
This is what it is about at the end of the day, and their puppet, Governor Walker, is ready to sell the Koch Brothers the state-owned utility system of Wisconsin for pennies on the dollar for his paymasters.
Governor Walker has intentionally muddied the waters concerning unions to muddy waters hoping no one will see the wholescale give-a-way of the state-owned public infrastructure to private interests.
Not only that, they are trying to redefine “public interest”! Who gets to decide? Not the public, Governor Walker by fiat! This is why the Koch Brothers put Scott Walker in power in the first place. But that’s not saying the union won’t go, it’s already starting in Ohio and Indiana.
Thanks for defending me Mr. Nelson, you’re too sweet!
Yes, and if you wear a pyramid shaped tinfoil hat the aliens won’t be able to read your mind.
Wow Ms. Tappa, the black helicopters must be over your house constantly. I love how you claim the governor “ginned” up the nearly $3 billion projected budget deficit your state will face in the next two years. Of course, Wisconsin has nothing on California when it comes to deficits, but you can dare to dream.
One way he “ginned it up” was by immediately instituting huge unpaid-for tax cuts on assuming office. That ginned the deficit RIGHT up! Works every time. Hm… where are we gonna take it out of now?
Barb puts forth a theory of what’s really going on. But is it crazy? Is it tinfoil-hat, black-helicopter crazy? That Senate Bill 11 is real, as is the Wisconsin Republicans’ move to make it harder to vote with their Voter ID law. I wonder what else they’re shoving thru while everyone in the world is fixated on their union controversy.
http://legis.wisconsin.gov/
They are not shoving anything through – the democrats have left the state shutting down the democratic process.
Here’s where the story stands now.
“So far the unions have agreed to all the financial concessions in Walker’s bill. The remaining fight is over the rights of workers to negotiate with their employer. That’s it. It has nothing to do with money and everything to do with breaking the union.
Despite those concessions Walker refuses to negotiate with anyone, even moderate Republicans. AND WALKER REFUSES TO ANSWER WHY HE’S SEEKING TO END COLLECTIVE BARGAINING RIGHTS IF THIS IS SOLELY A MATTER OF BALANCING THE STATE’S BUDGET.”
http://messageboards.aol.com/aol/en_us/articles.php?boardId=38496&articleId=18584828&func=6&channel=News&filterRead=false&filterHidden=true&filterUnhidden=false
Actually, things “stand” with 14 Wisconsin Democrat senators cowering in a Chicago hotel.
We need the private sector to take over some of these government run utilities. I was excited when I read this part of the bill. The government has way too much power and control. And, yes, I would like to see the private sector have more power than the government, why? Because that is a big part of what makes and America free, you know capitalism, the free market, etc. The government always had control over the “big corporations,” it just that they (individuals, politicians) weren’t satisfied with this role alone, they wanted to tip the scale so they and their lobbyists could line their pockets and have more power. Who can argue that government has not become BIG BROTHER, who can argue that we are on the road to serfdom. The pendulum has swung to the other side, let’s bring it back to more to the center. There is nothing wrong with making money and becoming rich! I thank God for the rich because that’s why I have a job!
Sorry Vern
Now back to the Unions in Wisconsin and then other states as well. Walker is trying to sell the change in collective bargaining as modest. “State and local employees could continue to bargain for base pay, they would not be able to bargain over other compensation measures.” But that’s not really true. You see, “total wage increases could not exceed a cap based on the consumer price index (CPI) unless approved by referendum.” In other words, they couldn’t bargain for wages to rise faster than inflation. So, in reality, they can’t bargain for wages and they can’t bargain over other forms of compensation. They just can’t bargain.
The proposal doesn’t stop there, though. “Contracts would be limited to one year and wages would be frozen until the new contract is settled. Collective bargaining units are required to take annual votes to maintain certification as a union. Employers would be prohibited from collecting union dues and members of collective bargaining units would not be required to pay dues.” These rules have nothing to do with pension costs or even bargaining. They’re just about weakening unions: They make it harder for unions to collect dues from members, to negotiate stable contracts or to survive a bad year.
The best way to explain Walker’s proposal is as a multi-part attack on the state’s labor unions. In part one, their ability to bargain benefits for their members is reduced. In part two, their ability to collect dues, and thus spend money organizing members or lobbying the legislature, is undercut. And in part three, workers have to vote the union back into existence every single year. Put it all together and it looks like this: Wisconsin’s unions can’t deliver value to their members, they’re deprived of the resources to change the rules so they can start delivering value to their members again, and because of that, their members eventually give in to employer pressure and shut the union down in one of the annual certification elections.
You may think Walker’s proposal is a good idea or a bad idea. But that’s what it does. And he’s exempting the unions that supported him and is trying to obscure his plan’s specifics behind misleading language about what unions can still bargain for and misleading rhetoric about the state’s budget. A Republican state senator offered a proposal that would initially eliminate the union’s bargaining rights –just as Walker wanted — and then reinstate those rights in 2013, giving the state time to get its fiscal house in order. When Walker was asked if he would accept that he said NO, that will never get to me, all the rest of the Republicans are firmly behind my proposal.
I wonder what the Koch brothers are paying each of them for their services?
I think that your facts here are spot on. In the current system, unions are able to collect dues purely for political lobbying from unwilling members unless the member comes down to the union office in person and asks the union to take their name off the list. No pressure or intimidation there. Remember, 96% of the dues DO NOT go to negotiation of wages, benefits, etc., but rather to political lobbying.
Second, if the union is such a great thing why does its existence need protection FROM ITS OWN MEMBERSHIP???? If the union is really serving its membership instead of the greedy pockets of a few leaders, won’t the yearly vote to extend its existence be purely formalistic?
MY MOM WAS A TEACHER IN THE WHITIER SCOOL DISTRICT MANY YEARS AGO . SHE SAID SHE HAS NEVER SEEN A BUNCH OF BULLIIES IN HER LIFE THEN THE TEACHERS UNION GOONS . TAKING HER DUES FOR THEIR POLITICAL AGENDA . SHE IS A CONSERVATIVE AND DID NOT WANT ONE CENT GOING TO THE DEM PARTY . THEY GAVE HER SAMPLE BALLOTS ON WHO TO VOTE FOR ALL DEMS . . SHE TOLD THEM NO WAY WAS SHE VOTING FOR ANY OF THESE FOLKS MONDALE BEING ONE OF THEM . SHE GOT SO MANY ANGRY LOOKS . . YES ALL ANGRY CAPS HAAAAA
The incestuous relationship between legislators and public employee (government) unions must be broken.
How about the incestuous relationship between legislators and corporate interests? Do you think that needs to be broken too?
At about the same level as the incestuous relationship between unions and legislators. I don’t believe in favortism at any level – merit should carry the day.
Well since you’re in a position to expound with original posts on the “most influential political blog in Orange County” perhaps you can write about ALL the inequities and favoritism in our governmental institutions…not just the ones involving unions.
The deeper you dig, the more you’ll see that the power of unions is waning and the power of corporations is expanding. Treat those two with a false equivalency if you want, but it flies in the face of objective reality.
If you have read my exchanges with the articulate Mr. Gilbert, you will see that I have no more trouble disagreeing with similar thinkers on the right. I admit that I do not know the federal numbers quoted by Vern as well as I know the numbers in California – but in California the balance of power is solidly in the court of the public unions.
A couple of insightful recent posts from Andrew Sullivan on this matter;
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2011/02/what-did-walker-campaign-on.html
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2011/02/how-does-this-help-balance-wisconsins-budget.html
“This is what I mean by my constant insistence on ‘moderation’ in government. Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes that you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid”
– President Dwight D. Eisenhower
You don’t have to love unions, you don’t have to believe that their policy positions are always right, to recognize that they’re among the few influential players in our political system representing the interests of middle- and working-class Americans, as opposed to the wealthy. Indeed, if America has become more oligarchic and less democratic over the last 30 years–which it has–that’s to an important extent due to the decline of private-sector unions… – Krugman http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/21/opinion/21krugman.html?_r=1 (good essay, I should repost the whole thing.)
The line coming from the right these days is that they have no problem with private-sector unions, only public-sector. It’s possible to create a logical-sounding argument for anything you want to do. But of course they don’t care so much about private-sector unions, they’ve pretty much already managed to destroy them over the decades. The Public Employee Unions are the remaining course of their grand feast, and they’re the last line of defense we middle-class people have against the wealthy going all Dickens on us.
I fear that our rightwing friends, despite the ostensible erudition of some of them, blindered by ideologies they’ve clung to religiously their whole lives, are just functioning as the useful idiots of billionaires. Like the Koch Brothers.
Al Gore’s manufacturing of a “global warming crisis” creating personal wealth for Mr. Gore nearing the billion dollar mark is an example of leftist corporate greed. I think the one and only common ground here is trying to identify ways to eliminate corruption. I don’t find it a very satisfactory argument that corruption from powerful unions is necessary to counteract perceived corruption and influence of corporate America. I would also argue that the private unions declined in power because they overreached in the 70’s and had to real back their demands to allow their employers to stay in business.
“Corruption” is a secondary question, whether corruption of unions or of corporations. The FIRST concern is that corporations and the super-wealthy are pushing, very successfully, an agenda that is harmful to the great majority of us Americans.
[“Corruption” is a secondary question, whether corruption of unions or of corporations.]……. classical socialistic thinking’s which always lead to holocaust. Stalin’s holocaust was 20M people Mao much larger.
[The FIRST concern is that corporations and the super-wealthy are pushing, very successfully, an agenda that is harmful to the great majority of us Americans.]……
How so?
Have you ever try to invest into any of these corporations?
Bill Gates, started as a kid and now he is biggest philanthropist in the world.
Founders of Google, started as students and now they too contribute to society more than any union or government. (services are free)
Facebook, was started by students and now they too contribute to society more than any union or government. (services are free)
I have mentioned just three contemporary corporations which are bigger than any economy in the world.
Without these corporation the world would starve to death.
Once for ever, put your shit where it belongs – Nelson.
Just in the case you cant figure out why the services of Google or Facebook are free?….. because other corporations pay for it you moron mongoloid.
They use to pay our health-care too until the unions and socialists destroyed it.
And when the government starts influencing the internet there will be charge $35-$75 per month same like cellphone. (mostly taxes)
Do you know that as US Citizen you must pay taxes even if you do not live in USA? No other nation has such law.
Do you know that as US Citizen no international bank will allow you to participate in trading? No other nation has such law.
There is lot of things you do not know comrade.
“I don’t find it a very satisfactory argument that corruption from powerful unions is necessary to counteract perceived corruption and influence of corporate America.”
So for you, union corruption is absolute, yet corporate corruption is merely “perceived”?
“I would also argue that the private unions declined in power because they overreached in the 70′s and had to real back their demands to allow their employers to stay in business.”
I don’t suppose you’d concede that the decline in private unions had ANYTHING to do with the increasingly symbiotic relationship between corporate interests and the government? Nothing at all to do with that?
Geoff,
LUNATIC FRINGE ALERT!
“Al Gore’s manufacturing of a “global warming crisis” creating personal wealth for Mr. Gore nearing the billion dollar mark is an example of leftist corporate greed.”
Yeah, Al Gore is paying off scientists all over the globe.
THE TRUTH;
He put his money where his mouth was, wrote successful books and invested in environmentally friendly companies and technologies. He did not “invent” global warming.
[He did not “invent” global warming.]……. Hmmmm
That is because there is none!
And if there is any global weather change it has noting to do wit human behavior and everything to do with cyclical changes of planetary and solar system.
He did not “invent” internet either.
Gore is like action medicine man who must offer a virgin to Gods because there is solar eclipse.
Absolute lobotomized idiot socialist like Nelson.
No, global climate change existed long before man. Gore invented scaring the world into buying into an industry he created. While there are scientists convinced that man has had an impact on climate change, there is a growing number of respected scientists that challenge this as a “settled” science now that the censorship of the left was revealed through climategate.
Look lads, there is no debating with idiots! That why the flee….They know they’re corrupt and they know that they can’t save the corrupt unions/greedy little members, so the only thing left to do is run!!!!!!!!!!
It’s a brilliant, truly brilliant! 🙂
Home of the bold and the brave and then you have a few losers, wasters and cowards/liberals/democrat’s!
Want to see the documentary WAITING FOR SUPERMAN? Perfect example of how the public unions are not helping our society (especially the middle class and poor) and producing poor results. Showing in Laguna Niguel http://www.meetup.com/SOC912 Friday, March 4th.
Anti-public education propaganda.
Yeah, Vern its all propaganda, have a little compassion for the kids who lives have been destroyed, especially in low income areas. Where the parents have no chance fighting the union.
Today in Compton parents lot against the union and the board to create a charter school…Where the hell is the ACLU when civil rights are really being denied!
Public schools are a disgrace and MUST be dismantled and privatized!
junior said: “The incestuous relationship between legislators and public employee (government) unions must be broken.
In reply anon said: “How about the incestuous relationship between legislators and corporate interests? Do you think that needs to be broken too?”
anon,
That is a red herring argument – There are no significant competing interests between public employee unions and corporations. The relationship between legislators and corporations has no relevance to the incestuous relationship between legislators and public employee unions.
Some socialist out there, please explain to me: Who will run the business if there will be no corporations?
Sole proprietors?
Government?
Unions?
Who?…………
Stan, try to get this straight:
When I say corporations have WAY too much power, and that they often do things that hurt the rest of us…
I am NOT, repeat NOT saying that they’re completely evil, or that we need to do away with them. Or that there aren’t some rich people doing great things like Bill Gates and Warren Buffet.
I’m saying two things: the rest of us need more power to balance off their interests, and unions are one of the few things we have.
And also, corporations are legally required to make as much money for their shareholders as they can by any means necessary and legal. There needs to eventually be a way to motivate them or require them to act with more of a social conscience (while making a profit.) It should be in the Constitution. Until then, we the people need to fight hard for our own interest against that adversary, the corporations and the billionaires.
Typical right-winger, Stan is. Only sees the world in terms of black and white, good and evil. You’re either all this or all that…there is no in-between.
The corporations give us jobs, the billionaires are behind creating the corporations and unions are about bringing down corporations and destroying jobs and opportunity.
You are a public worker and I am a corporation. I employ people and YOU live off the taxpayer.
It is black and white….I create jobs and you don’t! Government takes from me and I work hard! Welfare recipient’s are needy and I am not!
Corp’s are not all big and most corps are hard working people who feed lots and lots of people!
OMG!!!!
“Typical right-winger, Stan is.”……. Hmmmm
In his lifetime in the USA, starting 1969 Stan, the capitalist, was majority shareholder and CEO in 3 Corporations and was minority shareholder in one. He also employed up to 19 employed and provided free health care to all employs and their families. (during the Stans corporate tenure he was politically agnostic)
So Stan, the capitalist, knows what he is talking about.
MQ,
I’m not a public worker…I run my own business.
Chew on that for awhile. Not all business owners think the way you do. Yes, the world is more complicated than you’d like it to be. Boo-hoo.
But thanks for your useless speculation!
We the innovators, the worker and the corporation’s! We really are what makes this country great. Then there is the eternal students, unions, the dull and the ignorant elitists!
They are but the sh*& off our shoes!
Good for you stan!
Anon,
If you don’t think the way stan and I do who are REALLY business owners:
You have never employed anyone, paid employment taxes, workers comp, liability, insurance and have had the pleasure of dealing with corrupt unions and government institution’s!
So, I applaud the fact that you have your own business, but you MUST be a one man show!
I should add that in my first corporation 1971 named Culver Camera & Sound Service Inc., which I purchased, I was the distributor for the entire Los Angeles School District for Bell & Howell products.
It was there where I learn the GOVERNMENT BUREAUCRACY.
“So, I applaud the fact that you have your own business, but you MUST be a one man show!”
No, I’m not a one-man show. Unfortunately, your closed little mind refuses to believe that there are actually business men and women who look beyond simple self-interest and consider what’s best for their community…especially the middle-class.
“When I say corporations have WAY too much power, and that they often do things that hurt the rest of us”….. Hmmm
This is where you go wrong!
Corporations have exactly the amount of the power you as the consumer or shareholder will give them.
It is your problem that you are misinformed consumer or shareholder and buying product or shares from the corporation which sucks.
The corporation do not have any power to force you to buy their product unless they are regulated by the government which removes the competition like, BIG PHARMACEUTIC, Military–industrial complex (MIC) and government subcontractors like Blackwater Etc. Etc. Etc.
Republican president Dwight Eisenhower famously warned the US about the “military-industrial complex” in his farewell address.
The government is run by democrats and unions – YOU
Obama gave billions into GM which sucks so the unions will support him.
So it is your problem that billions go to these corporations and foreign accounts.
Why do you think that corporations advertise and spent millions on it?
If they would have power as you claim they would not!
In employment, every prosperous corporation pays their employs decent salary with share options and bonuses.
PLEASE NAME ONE CORPORATION WHICH HAS “WAY TOO MUCH POWER
PLEASE NAME ONE CORPORATION WHICH HAS “WAY TOO MUCH POWER
MQ says:
Nice!
No one is going to waste their time trying to “explain” anything to you.
You are ignorant, illiterate, incoherent and quite frankly, idiotic.
Instead of taking up space here with your moronic, unintelligible rants, you should spend your time bettering yourself, I suggest you start by reading a book.
And you are a beautiful,l intelligent, warm and loving individual. The scope of your vocabulary is astounding and inspiring!
I am sure you feel the same about her stan!
🙂
Vern said: “There needs to .. be a way to .. require them .. to act with more of a social conscience (while making a profit.) It should be in the Constitution.”
It is in the US Constitution Vern:
In 1913, the 16th Amendment to the Constitution made the income tax a permanent fixture in the U.S. tax system. The amendment gave Congress legal authority to tax income and resulted in a revenue law that taxed incomes of both individuals and corporations.
Nearly everytime time you vote for a Democrat, you are voting to force your will (your social conscience – not mine) on corporations to pay a higher tax. And actually, in the end, corporations do not pay taxes – they raise prices – EVERYONE pays for that Vern.
All taxes are a burden on the SYSTEM. How much of a burden the system can handle is the question.
just like a true far left lib anoster , degrading folks , i am better than you , dont question me morrons , all reps are evil , and most of all like most libs truely a 100% hypocrite ..
oh and by the way looking at the union goons and their signs , i guess the lets tone it down with the hate they scolded reps with didnt last long did it ..
Nelson stated: “some rich people doing great things like Bill Gates and Warren Buffet”……. Hmmmm.
You forgot to mention George Soros and that all three are democrats and Jews.
All are your people and by the way they are doing very evil things with their billions.
For example Bill Gates is involved in vaccination program in the third world design to reduce population. (geneside)
This democrat killed more people that Hitler ever did…… Vern, get informed you naive idealist.
Here is the link: http://www.prisonplanet.com/bill-gates-use-vaccines-to-lower-population.html
Once you there do not forget to click on the flowing link so you are informed and do not bark on the wrong tree:
http://www.stansberryresearch.com/pro/1011PSIENDVD/PPSILC38/PR
Interesting post today from Nate Silver on public unions.
http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/23/decoding-the-wisconsin-polls
What is interesting are replies to Nate Silver post.
It speaks for itself.
The Nate Silver article refers to polls which were taken on a nationwide basis. We are talking about Wisconsin here – apples and oranges.
Right…that makes the poll completely illegitimate, doesn’t it?
Really, if anything, it makes it MORE significant. And what Walker is doing in Wisconsin is also on the agenda of other newly-elected Republican Governors.
http://mediamatters.org/research/201102230006
UPDATED: Fox Reverses Poll Results To Falsely Claim Most Americans Favor Ending Collective Bargaining
GERRYCURL… YOU TOOK THE INFO FROM MEDIA MATTERS . ORG A EXTREME FAR LEFT FOX HATING WEBSITE .. NICE FAIR N BALLANCE HAAAAAAA WHAT A JOKE . SHOULD HAVE TOSSED IN MSHATEBC . HUFFINGTON BLOWHARD POST . AND THE DAILY KOOKS AND YOU GOT ALL OF THEM .
Nothing that you said proves that the Media Matter poll is not true or factual.
UPDATE: Kilmeade issued a correction during the final minute of Fox & Friends — 44 minutes after the error — saying: “I want to correct a poll that we did about 22 minutes ago from Gallup. Sixty-one percent oppose taking collective bargaining away from those people in Wisconsin; 33 percent in favor. I had it reversed. I apologize.”
Care to try again?
This is a reply to Vern’s comment above, that WAITING FOR SUPERMAN is just anti-education propaganda.
It is gentlemen like you who refuse to see the truth, who so instantly dismisses it, in fact, that is bringing down this country. We have become a divided nation. The bottom line is that public unions have become too powerful. Not only are they collectively bargaining greater pay and benefits that are unsustainable they are destroying the very “industry” they work in. Public schools is one example. The term “dumbing down of America” did not just come out of thin air. Our educational system is operating where the poor will continue to be poor because of the unions and where more and more middle income families will join their (the poor’s) rank. Continue to refuse to see this truth for even just a second or two, know that you are cooperating to destroy America.
We have become a divided nation. Step back and out and look at the whole United States of America. What is happening? First and foremost, the federal government has way too much power, which if the Constitution were followed would never have happened. The states have less power than the federal government, again something that would have never happened if we were following the Constitution. The states are now having to look at what the federal government says before it can act. Arizona is a good example.
Second, the lines that divide the roles among the executive branch, the legislative branch and the judicial branch have blurred so much that we are really not operating under the Constitution any more. Step back and out, look at the whole United States, and take a fresh look at what is happening.
We have become a divided country, not a united one. Remember the words, divided we fall, united we stand. Remember that hate is not only a great motivator but also a great divider. Remember the words, divide and then conquer.
Continue to refuse to see the bigger picture and continue to deny the truth and argue your side so you can protect your side and you will be an instigator and cooperate with the destruction of America. Yes, this union issue is on that scale, but it is only an example. The truth is there is no global warming and there is not much we can do about it anyway if it were true, the truth is we need to drill for oil in this country for security reasons and more, the truth is alternative energy like wind and solar is not enough and too costly and being blocked (too) anyway by regulations, the truth is oil is in abundance and drilling for it can be done safely and securely. The truth is Obamacare is a quagmire. The truth is government should not be in the automotive industry. The truth is Hamas is taking over the Mexican drug cartels (notice the recent beheadings? Catholics don’t behead.) And, there are more truths, unfortunately, so much more.
Wise men that you are, wake up and look at the truth. Wake up to the fact there is a force that wants us divided and weak so we will fall. By the end of this year, a gallon of gas will be $10 a gallon. $5 a gallon will be here by the end of next month.
What happens in Wisconsin will determine whether we as America will fall or stand. We are reaching a critical point of no return. If Wisconsin fails, we may not have many more chances to turn this tide around. Bottom line is public unions have too much power. And, one more truth, the socialist and communist groups have joined them in their struggle on the ground in Wisconsin. Refuse to see this truth? Check it out, do your research.
Well said Liberty33 !!
It cracks me up when I hear liberals whine that we need to:
“stand together in solidarity with the people of Wisconsin and all working people to defend against attacks on the middle class.”
Is that a joke or what? Public sector unions do not represent the middle class – they represent the elite “government class.”
The government class is sucking the lifeblood out of the true middle class – give me a frickin’ break!
LOL. Right. A janitor cleaning the latrines at the local courthouse represents the government class. Buahahahahaha!!!!
anon – you are missing the point. The demonstrations in Wisconsin may include janitors who clean latrines at the local courthouse, but THEY ARE ABOUT the UNION BOSSES and to the benefit of the union bosses – not the middle class.
Right. The demonstrators primarily care about enriching union bosses. Right. Got it. They don’t care about their own lives and futures. They’re doing this for the union bosses.
Unions are one of the most democratic institutions this country has, those “union bosses” are ELECTED.
Title IV of the Labor-Management Reporting and Disclosure Act of 1959 (LMRDA) establishes standards for elections of union officers. Local unions must elect their officers by secret ballot and national and international unions and intermediate bodies must elect their officers either by secret ballot of the members or by delegates chosen by secret ballot. Elections by national and international unions must be held at least every five years, intermediate bodies at least every four years, and local unions at least every three years.
It is a fixed election. The upper level union bosses are elected by the local business manager bosses.
The local business manager bosses are elected by their cronies who show up to union meetings and elections.
The local union thug bosses know who supports the party-line and those who don’t. Those who don’t support the head comrad are bullied into not attending union meetings and not voting for the local thug boss.
It is all rigged.
anonster.
While I have avoided this post I thought I might ask for your opinion on Card Check, a controversial issue that has moved off the table, for now.
This comment is being posted only to boost this thread to 200 comments.
On the Walker/”Koch” call update, I concur with Geoff on the sad state of the mainstream media. I have read several and heard several stories about the call, and not one mentioned the shameful comment about Ms. Brzezinski. I also find it ironic that the media and the left attack conservatives who expose real fraud and crimes (like the ACORN sting and the more recent exposure of Planned Parenthood’s aiding and abetting of underage prostitution) yet attempt to make hay of a conversation where everything Governor Walker said was consistent with what he has said in public, and where he made no disparaging remarks at all (that was left to the classy Mr. Murphy). Yet another example of why conservative blogs and talk radio are so important to exposing the truth about the left because the media wilfully chooses not to.