Graphic courtesy of the O.C. Register
By questioning the Irvine Company’s donation are we looking a gift horse in the mouth?
Orange County Real Estate is still a pretty expensive proposition no matter that we are staggering through the Greatest Recession, some say – in American history.
The Orange County Register’s Pat Brenan reported on the front page today that the caring and sharing Irvine Company wants “to give” the County of Orange about 20,000 acres of Prime Irvine land dedicated for parkland and other native wilderness uses.
Webster Guillory is our beloved County Tax Assessor and we can’t wait to hear what he might be saying about this Irvine Company give-a-way program that is being suggested. Let’s see, right now someone probably is responsible for the land taxes – even if it is designated as “unimproved property”! Since it might be designated as County Parkland….does that mean that the County will be picking up the tax bill? County taxes perhaps?
Hey, everyone loves parks, nature reserves and the great outdoors…that people can get lost in with their small children and later be found either attacked by mountain lions, bobcats or bitten by some diamond back rattler that didn’t want to be stepped on. Hopefully, when they create these additions to current Wilderness areas and a new Black Star Regional Park….they will require all hikers and bikers to take a GPS sensor with them and that they check in with Park Rangers – before they run off without letting anyone know where they are going or for how long.
The areas include 172 acres between the 73-405- and 5 which will be added to the current Laguna Coast Wilderness Park…as an expansion area. 8,471 acres up the 241 toward the 91 called the Freemont/Gypsum Canyons Wilderness. 3,408 acres added to the current Irvine Regional Park. 6,165 acres just east of 133 and north of 241 called the Limestone/Whiting Wilderness Park expansion and finally 2,096 acres designated at the Black Star Regional Park centered between the 241 and the 91 freeways.
So, what does the Irvine Company get out of this great “giving till it hurts” behavior? Nobody seems to be talking right now. Are there “trade offs” being done behind the scenes for deeper density in various development areas of the County? Are there reduced Tax Assessments being provided to the Irvine Company for their largess? Supervisor Bill Campbell seems to be supporting the take-over of the property, but what other Supervisors are going to step up and ask-tell-or provide the people with the complete details of this great land grab by the County. Think about it – who would want to give up over 20,000 acres of prime California Real Estate – without getting a nice trade-off….perhaps limiting the amount of “Affordable Housing” new or old Irvine Company developments might require – for instance?
“Never look a Gift Horse in the Mouth!” was a cowboy expression that suggested that when “someone” wanted to give you a horse…..which was generally considered a good thing – that you shouldn’t look too closely at what you were getting. The idea being that a horse with serious problems may have some health problems, bad teeth or could as Ross Perot once said: “Find the Devil…in the details!” We suggest that County Supervisors educate themselves enough to explain to all the voters – all the details!
In any event, we are hoping that if the proposal goes forward that Orange County Park Rangers will demand that GPS/Computer Check-in Programs for Hikers and Environmentalist be required to enter County Wildlife areas. Everyone should be required to provide almost a “flight plan” of activity and estimations of when they may be returning to civilization. Avoiding those possible “Deliverance Moments” are essential, along with keeping family and friends availed of their locations. Rangers also need to plant “Border Thumpers” around areas in these parks which can help locate lost or off course hikers and environmentalists.
Perhaps, the Irvine Company is just taking a little worhtless land off of it’s books….maybe not. “The Devil is in the details!”
You raise some excellent questions.
Somebody needs to explain what’s wrong with the status quo before leaping off into this.
Of course Jerbal, over at Red County, is praising this donation – without questioning what the Irvine Company might be getting in the deal.
The Irvine Company has been bragging about their “Preserve” for years – and using it to justify more development in Orange and Irvine. Now they’re finally giving it to the County and no doubt getting a massive tax write off. Meanwhile the County which is laying people off and can’t afford to manage a hot dog stand.
Here’s a plan: County says thanks, but no thanks; we’ll take a permanent easment instead.
Is anyone surprised that the man who likes illegal fishing wants to expand government?
Even funnier, Jerbal says the OC Parks funding is in great shape. It better be! Supervisor Bill Campbell pulled strings so his pal Mark Denny would be appointed to run the Parks department, despite having zero experience in that area.
Well, Zenger, you’re allegedly a county planning commissioner. Shouldn’t you be able to get some answers.
And Art, boy isn’t it awful that a company wants to donate 20,000 acres of wilderness to the county park system! How dare they! Do they take us for rubes that we would take that kind of abuse?
Idiots. All of you.
I am astounded that Art and David can’t look at the big picture.
This would be the most incredibly
wonderful act that Irvine and the County could ever do for future generations.
It is sad to be so full of suspicions and
sour opinions in light of what is to be gained. If the Irvine company pays no taxes on this beautiful preserve so be it.
Money, money, money! Give them a few sheckles for this pearl.
In 2100 the money will be gone to other hands but the land will be there!
This legacy will be priceless!!
#3, not allegedly. I am an honest to goodness one. Been one for almost seven years, and that must bother you. Why should the County take over land that has a much ballyhooed conservation easement on it?
Any idiot can stand on a rock and go all gaga because he sees a family of deer wander by. I’d like to know if the County can afford to manage this real estate.
Rock? Deer? ???
Its’ the paranoia of you people that’s so funny. Zenger strokes the Winships for their ridiculous speculations, instead of asking intelligent questions.
I mean, “prime Irvine land”? What kind of development do Ron & Anna think can be built in Limestone or Fremont canyons? What development “trade-offs” are Ron & Anna worried TIC is getting from the county? Where does TIC have any significant developable land that comes under the county’s purview?
You people are so paranoid and caught up in your petty personality conflicts you can’t be happy about this good fortune that has come Orange County’s way.
*RP –
Whoa…now…parnoid hey? How about this paranoid agrument: According to Supervisor Moorlach….presently the Irvine Company is paying $70,000 a year in taxes for over 20,000
acres of “unimproved Orange County Real Estate”.
Now even in these tough economic times….how much do you think it will cost the County of Orange to Manage and Administer the newly aquired property and take care of that 20,000 acres for Public use – as Dr. Zenger has stated.
But, RP….that is only issue one. How about issue two: What are the behind the scenes deals that are being brokered with the Irvine Company for this land? Where is your buddy Larry Agran?
Shouldn’t he be stepping up to endorse this great land giveaway to the people of Irvine and Orange County?
Issue three: Don’t accuse others of being grossly paranoid…when you haven’t asked any of the right questions to begin with!
Or, are we now being naive as well….in your opinion? Or…do you just work for the Government
….too?
What kind of “Real Person” would write “you people”, humm….let me guess one that
likes to hide in dark holes.
I don’t know any of the answers to your questions and will be looking forward to finding out. One thing I do know: If houses are built all over that property eventually, the open land can never be taken back and the traffic congestion will continue. Let’s not take a chance.
Barbara, I believe the 11,000 northerly acres has a conservation easement on it. If it is being conserved what is the necessity for the County owning it?
Some folks like “Real Person” seem comforted by the idea of the government owning more land, even if it comes off the tax rolls.
“let me guess one that likes to hide in dark holes.”
Like all those anonymous bloggers on your blog, Tony? Careful in that glass house of yours.
“Real Person” sure sounds a lot like this guy:
Ron:
You want us to pas up the donation of 20,000 wilderness acres to the county so we can keep $70,000 in property taxes? That’s assuming that figures doesn’t decline with land valuations.
Talk about short-sighted.
And you talk as if there ARE behind the scenes deals being brokered with Larry Agran. Like I said: paranoid.
more paranoia from Art.
#14,
Remember when the County mob said Moorlach was paranoid? Well, the County went bankrupt, just as he predicted.
Now he is questioning this donation, according to the Winships. Shouldn’t we heed his warning and ask the right questions without just bending voer for the Irvine Company?
It is especially worrisome to see Jerbal crowing about this on Red County. Talk about waving a red flag!
I have heard some good news (rumor)for all of you who have more interest in tax base than in preserving the rocks and deer.
All of the east Orange development of 5000 homes including the areas around Irvine lake.
So we can take the $70,000 tax base and make the new home owners pay it 70k/5000=$14 bucks each!
I was sadly under the illusion from looking at the GREEN map that there will be NO HOMES in those areas.
Can anyone confirm whether the development is in or out??
Folks,
The $70K is “chump change”! Our question was: “How could the Irvine Company pay a measly
$70K a year for 20,000 acres of OC Land?
How much would you say ONE acre of Irvine Land
has to pay a year if it is presently “unimproved”?
At any rate, the “full disclosure rule” needs to be in effect. As long as the deal is “out front” and has no hidden benefits for any of the givers.. we will be more than satisfied. We will however ask Webster Guillory how much Tony Moisio and the Santa Margarita Company are being hit for their “Unimproved – Open Space – Soon to be developed Land”. You know, that stuff along the proposed 241 Extension? Get where we are going here…yet RP?
For what it’s worth, that real estate is zoned A-1 – General Agriculture. It has a cap desnsity of one dwelling unit per four acres. There are however many possible uses that can be permitted as defined by the ZC.
So, you have to agree, the 5000 housing units will bring in millions in taxes not chump change!
My question is still
IS THE HOUSING DEVELOPMENT IN OR OUT???
One correction…Art…..Moorlach never said he
questioned the donation. He simply mentioned that the current tax encombrance or loss to county was only the $70K…should the go through.
rw
#19 Paul it’s not that simple. A lot of that terrain is unbuildable even at 1 house per four acres.
I believe what you are referring to is the proposed developments east of Orange. Those entitlements are being processed by the City of Orange, not the County. I don’t know what the staus of that is, but it is not part of the 20K acreage.
#21 I’m well aware of the terrain there. The
green areas around the lake and east of the
toll road were the proposed and approved 5k homes. The map they published includes those development areas as being offered to the
county. Many of us were floored by this offering.
IT’S JUST A BAD MAP!!! Did you not see the map?
#22, if you’re referring to the map at the top of the post – yes, it’s an overly simplified map.
If you want find out for sure call Orange City Hall tomorrow and ask about the status of the east Orange projects.
Art, it’s hard to take you seriously when your support or opposition to something is based on whether or not people you don’t like support it.
And I think Zenger’s answers should put to rest the paranoid delusions about some Irvine Company backroom deal that is somehow, someway screwing Orange County taxpayers.
I would be very surprised if there weren’t some sort of “backroom” deal. That’s how these things get worked out before they are presented to the PR people for dissemination.
I have no idea whether it will “screw” the OC taxpayers or not, but it must be in TICs interest or they wouldn’t be doing it. Last time I looked they were not a charity.
But I would like somebody to answer the question: what’s wrong with the status quo?
Much of this land was previously offered to the county as dedicated parkland or open space reserve. Some of it is in the City of Orange Sphere of Influence and that City could have accepted it. This was 5 or more years ago. The county and City staff balked, saying theylacked adequate park money to manage it, plus pay damages for liability claims and lawsuits of the public who might be hurt/injured while enjoying the property. The Irvine Preserve/Consevancy was the answer turned to by the Irvine Company. Since then, a purge of county staff involved in overseeing the County Parks program has occurred, with one key replacement being a Republican player who aims to please the special interests. Thus, the try to offer the land again – with the impediments within county government now gone. That’s the story – and of course the donor reserves all kinds of easments across the offered property for things like utilities, grading, etc. On the plus side some of this property could be developed some day unless some kind of dedication had been offered and accepted. As Mr. Zenger says, the status quo would be just fine with regard to preserving the land just as well as this offer of dedication.
You can bet Bren aint gonna do nothing unless it increases his bottom line!
What do you expect from a guy that stole the Irvine company away from Joan Irvine–Anyone thats been around OC for a while knows this old story- How much do they spend on PR?