Persecution of gays, pro-choice supporters or anyone else who does not agree with their narrow minded view of the world has never been out of vogue amongst the religious right.

Sorry Matt, but my cop-out alarm is going off like crazy!

SMS

Gustavo, there is no other “school” of Christianity.

By stating they think same-sex relationships are sinful, or any sexual relations outside of marriage as sinful, then going on to oppose (like you) homosexual marriage, that implicates homosexuals as sinners. There’s just no way to parse any other meaning from it.

Gustavo, there’s no parsing going on their statement. You’re injecting meaning that isn’t there, and drawing implications that don’t logically follow. Newsong states its position very clearly. It’s entirely consistent with orthodox Christian belief: we are all sinners, but simply being one way or another isn’t sinful.

If that’s not enough for you, Newsong later states, “Do we have a place for all misfits or just some in particular?” That’s a crass way of stating gays are abnormal; ergo, gays are sinners.

You are using tortured reasoning to make that statement mean what you want it to mean, not what it plainly says.

And your defense of Ahmanson’s statement is strange–are you claiming moral relativism? I thought only lefties do that!

No, it’s not moral relativism. I’m telling you what I think Ahamanson is saying, inn light of other statements he has made about homosexuals and homosexuality that are the opposite of the sinister pall you cast over him.

But recognizing the difference in what is considered moral during different ages, and between different cultures, is quite distinct from subscribing to a philosophy that there is no such thing as right and wrong.

Not only that, but given Ahmanson’s longtime advocacy of Reconstructionism, his statement sounds much more sinister than your benign spin.

I don’t know what Reconstructionism is, so I’ll have to get back to you on that one.

One more time: do you think Howard F. Ahmanson, Jr. is still a “stellar conservative”?

Yes, I have said before, I do. He’s one of the relatively few men of means on the Right who actually puts his funds into the fight because of what he believes.

Sorry to inform you but intolerance for intolerance under the veil of religion is certainly not persecution. Persecution is when one group is hellbent on destroying another. Gays and lesbians are not attempting to destroy anything; they just want equality.

As I said before, your religion has a right to define its own rites, which is why I don’t like the word marriage to be included in any legal unions, but on the flip side, don’t all people deserve equal rights?

SMS

If you stop and think about it, it’s actually a very liberating theology. If one truly believes it, and takes it seriously, then one MUST come to the conclusion that no person is better than any other…regardless of gender, race, politics, religion, sexual orientation, or anything else.

My point, as I stated previously, is that it’s absurd to speculate that a person believes a certain way on a certain issue just because they went to a particular school or once attended a church that has a particular view on a single topic. That is simply, and self-evidently, absurd.

Because you say that you would give that person the benefit of the doubt, you show yourself to actually be open-minded on that dynamic. What I was also highlighting is that Art and Sean take the opposite approach….better to just assume that someone is guilty by association (and yeah, that’s highly ethical)…without having ever had an in-depth conversation with said person about what they believe.

Actually, Newsong believes that we’re ALL sinners, and therefore, in some way, “misfits”. ALL of us, including me. We ALL mess up. We’re ALL in need of community, reconciliation and relationship with others.

One has to possess a degree of humility to acknowledge that yes, in some way, I’m a misfit. There’s no shame in claiming that.

Are they perfect at providing that community? No. But then, neither is any other church on the face of the planet. Churches, after all, are run by people.

For a more expansive view of what they stand for (beyond just one issue), see the link I provided above.

I’m open-minded. I would give that person the benefit of the doubt, but what’s your point? Mine is that the Catholic church still teaches fundamentalism.

SMS

Not answering questions is his forte, his M. O., his very raison d’etre.

And your defense of Ahmanson’s statement is strange–are you claiming moral relativism? I thought only lefties do that! Not only that, but given Ahmanson’s longtime advocacy of Reconstructionism, his statement sounds much more sinister than your benign spin.

One more time: do you think Howard F. Ahmanson, Jr. is still a “stellar conservative”?

Yes you did.

How about someone who would describe themselves as Catholic, but not “devoutly” Catholic (in other words, they do not, as you say, believe exactly as his/her church teaches)? Is that person a bigot?